Dave Hayward

BreweryBottleshopTaproomAllFounder
Written By Rob Cadwell

Crafting a happy, hoppy rabble of community around beer.

We’re at Indie Rabble Brewery and Taproom which has been open now for about six months. And I’m speaking with co-owner Dave Hayward, who also co-owns the two A Hoppy Place bottle shops in Windsor and Maidenhead. Dave and his partner, Naomi, have a great story of following their passion to bring a better balance to their lives and over the past 4 years, building a community of people all around beer. 

Credit as well in this episode go to the two brewery dogs, Simcoe and Copper, who make the occasional barky appearance.

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Transcript

Please note this is an automated transcript (so will certainly contain errors and mistranslations but should give you a good gist of the conversation):

Dave: You know, maybe we're all a bit different and weird, the people that really fall for craft beer hard. Dave: But we just found so many of our people so quickly and it just really reinforced to us. Dave: This is why we do this. Dave: We knew what we loved, we knew how we like to host events, how we like to bring people in, but for more than just a drink. Dave: And it kind of paid rewards once we did it, once we did it for ourselves rather than someone else. Rob (Host): Hello and welcome to we are Beer People, a podcast all about the many different people who help us enjoy beer. Rob (Host): I'm your host, Rob Cadwell, and I reckon if you're listening to this, then there's a good chance that you are one of the beer people too. Rob (Host): You might be involved in the world of beer. Rob (Host): You may want to find out more about the industry, or perhaps you simply enjoy drinking the stuff. Rob (Host): So join me now as I have a chat with one of the beer people. Rob (Host): Welcome to a railway arch in Windsor, Berkshire. Rob (Host): But this is a railway arch that's become somewhat of a destination beer location, with two Flints Brewery literally next door, and Windsor and Eaton Brewery just a few hundred metres away. Rob (Host): We're at Indie rabble Brewery in taproom, which has been open now for about six months. Rob (Host): And I'm delighted to be speaking with co owner Dave Hayward, who also co owns the two ahoppy Place bottle shops in Windsor and Maidenhead. Rob (Host): Dave and his partner Naomi have a great story of following their passion to bring a better balance to their lives and over the past four years, building a community of people all around beer. Rob (Host): We record this podcast on a Thursday night in their bustling, bright and colourful tap room. Rob (Host): So as well as the bubble of conversation, you may hear the occasional sounds of Dave's dog Simcoe and her best friend copper, playing together in the background. Rob (Host): It really shows the welcoming environment they've created here. Rob (Host): I do have my worries, though. Rob (Host): The royal family are definitely going to be missing out on some of their usual Windsor crowds. Rob (Host): And I put this to Dave. Rob (Host): Are the rumours true that you're stealing away footfall from the nearby castle? Dave: I'd like to think that's true. Dave: I don't know if it's exactly true yet, but it's something we really want to work on as we get into next year especially. Dave: So we really want an I'll probably try and get this into your pot a few times today, generate what we're calling the Windsor beer mile. Dave: Get people to come to town, not just because there's some posh people at the top of the hill, but because there's fantastic beer down here as well. Dave: And of course, you can see the castle from outside, so in the summer months, have a look at them whilst drinking a nice tasty pint or something. Rob (Host): Absolutely. Rob (Host): And you can really be nearer to the railway station. Dave: Absolutely. Rob (Host): Getting here or anything like that. Rob (Host): But it all looks good. Rob (Host): So cheers anyway. Dave: Cheers. Dave: Cheers. Rob (Host): So, firstly, how are you doing? Rob (Host): And what have you been up to today? Rob (Host): On Thursday? Dave: It's a big question, so we'll get it out there up front. Dave: I work in the beer industry. Dave: I also work in the it industry. Dave: I also now do sales and everything else. Dave: So today I'll take you through it from the beginning. Dave: I made some bad choices last night that involved beer that I shouldn't have drunk quite late into the evening, because yesterday we were hosting a pub quiz in hobby place, maidenhead, which is my second full time job, of course, managing that at this point. Rob (Host): Can I ask how many full time jobs you have? Dave: Three at the moment. Dave: I think that's probably the limit, because I do need to sleep at points. Dave: That's fair. Dave: Yeah. Dave: So we did that. Dave: Hosted the pub quiz. Dave: That was lovely. Dave: Had a couple of beers after that was lovely at the time. Dave: Woke up this morning, that was less lovely. Rob (Host): You're dealing with your past decisions. Dave: Yeah. Dave: And then had to rush over to Heathrow airport to do my day job, where I manage a couple of teams and director in a tech company, which I still have to do full time, because we might talk about beer industry, health and all the rest of it in a short time. Dave: Absolutely. Dave: And then I've rushed straight from there, here, to have a chat with you in my third full time job, Rob, which is, of course, co owner of this brewery. Dave: Excellent. Rob (Host): Thank you very much for joining us. Rob (Host): I know how busy you are today. Rob (Host): Can you tell us who you are and what you do? Dave: Yeah, I can say I'm Dave. Dave: I co own this place here, indie rabble, as well as a hobby place. Dave: And really, I don't do much time behind the bar anymore. Dave: I did in the early days. Dave: So, hobby place Windsor is about four and a half years old now. Dave: Just starting to plan out our fifth birthday, which will be in August. Dave: And in the early days, it was very much Naomi, who's upstairs making Christmas decorations. Dave: My wife and co owner, as well as her brother Jason and I. Dave: That was the business. Dave: That was just the three of us, so we would always be bar side as well. Dave: But quite quickly I realized that although I can pour a pint, my strength is in the operational side, the finance side, the website side. Dave: Something that we're quite lucky about is just, well, terribly unlucky in the firsthand, which was six months into us running Covid happened. Rob (Host): Yeah, it was very unfair, wasn't it? Dave: It was unfair, but we just started to build some regular customers. Dave: And the lucky part is I do it by day and I'm kind of quite good at it. Dave: So we managed to get our website going and trading online and driving around, delivering beer quite quickly. Dave: So what I do, really is ferry stuff around and try and keep people happy, and that's our staff, to make sure that we're doing well here at the hobies and now at the brewery and the public as well. Dave: So I do a lot of the face of both businesses, I do the social media. Dave: It's usually me talking rubbish on the Internet about beer, about either this business or the other, or trying to engage with people. Dave: So really I just turn up, prop up at the side of the bar, talk rubbish, and then hopefully things go well enough that I can pay our staff at the end of the month as well. Dave: That's right. Rob (Host): A little bit like a swan, then. Rob (Host): So people probably see the calm exterior, but there's a lot going on. Dave: Yeah. Dave: Although I don't think I look entirely calm on other sides either. Dave: We'll give you that as a podcast. Rob (Host): No one can see. Rob (Host): But if you could take us back to the beginning, then. Rob (Host): So why beer? Rob (Host): What brought you here? Dave: I like this story because it's a hobby of passion, but it was kind of, in my case, done for altruistic reasons, really. Dave: So from the age of 14, really, I was drinking beer quite regularly. Dave: I found at the time it was commercial lager. Dave: There's a lot of carling and stuff like that, which, whatever, it's fine. Dave: I'm not the kind of person who dumps on big macro beer. Dave: I don't sell it because why would I? Dave: But it is what it is. Dave: I think our product is better, but again, if that's what someone drinks, we've got an opportunity to give them a tasty pint of our lager and hopefully prove that it's better. Dave: So I'm not here to gatekeep craft beer for pizza, but, yeah, I started drinking early in a local pub that we definitely weren't allowed into. Dave: But it's okay because the owners are out the back illegally, gambling and whatever else they were doing. Dave: So all the 14 year olds drinking lager was, for them, not a problem. Dave: And for about ten years, that was it. Dave: That was really what I did. Dave: At some point in the midst of that, I met Naomi, my now wife. Dave: We've been together for 18 od years, and she quite liked to beer as well. Dave: And her dad was a big drinker as well, so we had that in common. Dave: And for us, from the very beginning, it was because of the social aspect. Dave: So I went to that pub when I was too young to meet five or six mates who were also too young, and we'd have a great time around a table. Dave: And beer was a part of that conversation station. Dave: And for Naomi and I, that was very much the same thing again. Dave: And about seven years ago now, because Naomi was commuting from Maidenhead, where we now live. Dave: We moved from northwest London at some point to Maidenhead. Dave: She was commuting to Shoreditch every day to work in the fashion industry. Dave: So she's, as you've seen, quite a good designer, has a good eye, things like this. Dave: That was her life and she was done with it. Dave: It's a very, very tough industry. Dave: Very unrewarding, unforgiving, with a four hour commute every day. Dave: And we sat down and had a heart to heart about what would she rather do. Dave: And we kind of settled on beer. Dave: So my origins for getting into this industry, and I'd like to touch on it a bit more later, but was really to make sure that Naomi had the career that she wanted. Dave: So I was the man with the numbers behind her vision, really, for Poppy Windsor. Dave: And that's where we started and where we've come from. Rob (Host): Yeah, lovely. Rob (Host): So, yeah, all starts from people, which was my next question, really. Rob (Host): And we've heard a bit how busy you are, but I think you couldn't have a hoppy place in an indie rabble without all the people around you, 100% the partners, the co owners and all of that, and the crowdfunders. Rob (Host): But how have people helped you get mean? Dave: We wouldn't be trying to do this, as I said, if we hadn't had a love for that environment for people, for pubs, for pints, for community. Dave: And when we started a hobby place, I think Naomi and I, we lived in Maidenhead at that point for about five years. Dave: We're just over ten now, and we'd not really made any friends in the area. Dave: We still had contacts from where we used to live in Harrow, but we had no one out here, really, except each other. Dave: And we started the pub within a couple of years, there were 30 or 40 people that we consider close friends and call close friends. Dave: And I just realized maybe we're all a bit different and weird. Dave: The people that really fall for craft beer hard. Dave: But we just found so many of our people so quickly. Dave: And it just really reinforced to us. Dave: This is why we do this. Dave: We knew what we loved. Dave: We knew how we like to host events, how we like to bring people in. Dave: But for more than just the drink. Dave: And it kind of paid rewards. Dave: Once we did it, once we did it for ourselves rather than someone else. Dave: We did a little bit part time elsewhere with other breweries and stuff like that as well. Dave: Once it was ours, the people came to us. Dave: And it's very difficult at the moment. Dave: But that engagement, that community, that sense of belonging, is why we've kept going and why we battled through the tough times and why we do this absolutely. Rob (Host): Well, I think we'll come back to the tough times. Rob (Host): I think at the moment that we're in, they're certainly being felt by so many people at the moment. Rob (Host): I'd like to talk about, perhaps, how you got into the first step now. Rob (Host): So you're probably three steps into two hoppy places and indie rabble. Rob (Host): But I guess, yeah. Rob (Host): How did you get into that? Dave: First, to call back to what I said, naomi needed a change. Dave: And we, at the time, had started frequenting a brewery in Henley, which was. Dave: It still exists, but it no longer has a tap room, unfortunately, loverbonds brewery. Dave: So we absolutely loved it there. Dave: And what we found there, it was like a big wooden barn. Dave: It had a plastic roof. Dave: It was freezing cold in the winter. Dave: The radiators didn't work. Dave: Sort of chunky garden furniture inside. Dave: But 100 of the nicest people will ever meet that rented it. Dave: And we got to. Dave: And the beer, by the way, is astounding and still is astounding. Dave: It's not the most fashionable for some. Dave: It's classic styles, well executed. Dave: All that's a beer I love. Dave: But we just fell for that place quite hard. Dave: During Naomi's sort of real pontification. Dave: What do I do with, my know, sort of quarter life crisis kind of stuff. Dave: We were sat there having a beer over it. Dave: And we spoke to the owner, Jeff, and just sort of said, well, could Naomi do some shifts here? Dave: And she did. Dave: She started working behind the bar there. Dave: And then at a certain point in time, Naomi had an event because she's also in a band. Dave: So I turned up and I did the shift. Dave: And then Jeff, the owner, said, well, I'm doing a pop up bar in college somewhere up the hill in a couple of weeks. Dave: Dave, do you want to run? Dave: Then I did. Dave: And then I started learning how know plug John guests into each other and set up a beer chiller and do the sellering side of stuff, which was new to us. Dave: And that was our initial way in. Dave: And we went from there. Dave: Naomi managed to secure a full time role at mad squirrel, who, if anyone who's listening doesn't know, I think they've got six tap rooms now. Dave: They're quite successful. Dave: And their owner, Greg Wesson, comes from big alcohol, as it were. Dave: He diageo. Dave: What he's done is establish a brewery and tap remodel where he can sell really all of his beer in his own outlets. Dave: Like anything they send to trade, it's a bonus for them. Dave: And that, I think, is a very, very clever way to run a business. Dave: She worked there for a couple of years. Dave: Not even that long, I think about a year. Dave: And then we went to Windsor for a walk, as you do, and we were sort of thinking, we'd like to do this ourselves. Dave: This is what I have, some business acumen. Dave: Naomi loves being in charge, not having to beg borrower and steal for permission to do everything elsewhere to get budget for events. Dave: We want to do this ourselves. Dave: And what we always wanted was a music and craft beer hub. Dave: So we had to make our own. Dave: But no one knew who we were. Dave: We had no trading history. Dave: I didn't know how to establish a company at that point. Dave: And we tried a couple of estate agents for a couple of units in Windsor and got really no response at all. Dave: And then one day just saw a really sort of shoddily written sign in a window that said to let call this number. Dave: And the window it used to be for anyone who knows Windsor very well over the years. Dave: It used to be a german bakery. Dave: So there's a big german flag in the window on St Londis Road. Dave: But it was all closed up. Dave: It was ancient. Dave: All the furniture in there was from the 70s. Dave: Wow. Dave: But the guy phoned us back and private landlord who we submitted our business plan to. Dave: I googled how to do a business plan, but took it very seriously. Rob (Host): You could probably pop that into AI now and generate something, but I guess you had to leave the hard to. Dave: That point, but put a lot of numbers into that, submitted it to him, gave him our vision, sat down, had a beer together and he believed in us. Dave: So with sort of no reputation in the beer industry, no trading history whatsoever, suddenly we had a lease on a shop in Windsor, well, just over four and a half years ago. Dave: Now that we got the keys for that, and then things snowballed. Rob (Host): So in some ways, lover bonds was your gateway into the business. Dave: It was. Dave: And the community that Jeff had in that tap room, which is sadly now a block of flats, it's what really cemented to us that the way. Dave: I don't know if it's the way to be successful, because the jury's still out on that, but what we wanted to create was a space for our mates that hopefully also pay the bills. Dave: And we've loved the majority of it, even through Covid, the connections that we made with people, the bonds that we've got, the permanent friendships that we've got. Dave: Of course, we met two people in the hobby place garden. Dave: Turns out one of them is quite a good brewer. Dave: And it's led to the building you're in now, which is the brewery as well. Dave: None of that would happen without loverbonds. Dave: None of that would have happened without that landlord believing in us. Dave: We met Alex and Ali there, and here we are now, kind of thing, a few years later. Rob (Host): It always comes back to people, though, doesn't it? Rob (Host): People giving you a chance, people helping you, people coming together and all those sorts of things. Dave: And it's often said, but craft beer is just such a lovely industry, because whenever anyone needs anything, there's someone there prepared to give up their time for free, for nothing in return. Dave: No future favors. Dave: It's just, oh, yeah, you could try and do this, or, oh, you need gas, we'll bring it over. Dave: You need a beer on an emergency and you can't afford to pay, we'll bring it over, sort us out, all of that kind of stuff. Dave: It's just a really refreshingly kind industry to be a part of. Rob (Host): Yeah, I've heard it a lot. Rob (Host): But people say that brewers and breweries do help out, and it's unusual. Rob (Host): You think in other industries they could be viewed as competitors. Dave: Yeah, I think a great example is literally next door for two flints. Dave: Next door. Dave: They opened about four months before us, and when we were taking tenancy of this arch, they were asked, how do you feel about another brewery being next door? Dave: And we were asked, how do you feel about another brewery being next door? Dave: And of course, the Archco, they brought us both in and they opened about three months ahead of us. Dave: But we both started, and we're both breweries, we're both the same size of brewery, which is a lot of beer to sell. Dave: We're both trying to fill our tap rooms every night. Dave: And yet on both sides, we said, yeah, that's great, because we'll get more people down. Dave: We can be more than the sum of our parts. Dave: We share a forklift, we've co hosted events where people get one wristband for both breweries. Dave: And I think I can't think of another industry where another business doing exactly the same thing as you could open next door and be like, oh, yeah, great. Dave: Can we share equipment and brew together and help each other with recipes and sell each other's beer and all that kind of stuff? Dave: It's a very beery thing. Rob (Host): And I think if you had done carbon copies of each other and been the same thing, there would be no reason for people to go to both. Rob (Host): But you're all different. Rob (Host): You offer different things to different people, different beers, different environments. Dave: We do. Dave: I think that's good. Dave: It's not like, by design from our side, that we're different. Dave: It's kind of luck. Dave: But Naomi and I and Alex and Ali, the four of us, we enjoy, you could argue sometimes the more classic end of the beer spectrum, but executed very well. Dave: So my favorite beer stars are west coast ipas, lagers and stouts. Dave: The head brewer next door at two flints, Bret, he's got a very, very good background as a hazy ipa producer. Dave: And we do those as well. Dave: And then equally, we're more into our live music. Dave: They show the rugby more, but we just seem to complement each other really well. Dave: And there's a lot of value, people coming for both. Dave: And we do this constant glass arm assess where we've got a whole tray of two flints glasses. Dave: We walk them back next door and vice versa. Dave: We don't care if someone sits down in here and drinks one of their beers. Dave: We just want as many people as possible to come to Windsor and enjoy Windsor beer. Dave: And it's not just us, too, it's Windsor and Eaton Brewery as well. Dave: They've been here ten years. Dave: Equally. Dave: They've been very supportive of us, which we were slightly more nervous about, but they get it as well. Dave: And all three businesses just want good people to come and drink good beer. Dave: And it's nice, definitely. Rob (Host): And, I mean, it's better for beer drinkers because you've got more choice, you've got more options. Rob (Host): Whatever you're feeling that day, you can go to it. Rob (Host): And hopefully it's better for you guys because it's more of a magnet. Rob (Host): And coming back to your Windsor beer mile is going to help encourage that. Dave: We really want to work that next year. Dave: Your average coach load of american tourists, for example, and there's dozens of them every day that come in, if we can. Dave: Just how many of them would be excited in a brewery plus castle tour? Dave: Get off the coach, go to the castle, see some royal stuff. Dave: I don't know what they do up there. Dave: Come down here and have some great beer. Dave: There's definitely a big market for it, and that's what we want to do. Dave: We want Windsor to be greater than some of its parts. Dave: Everyone goes to Bermansee, people go to Warthamstow now as well. Dave: We're building something that genuinely competes with those spaces. Dave: We want to get people here to experience them. Rob (Host): For someone running three different business locations, and you've mentioned you've got your day job in it as well. Rob (Host): I'm sure there's no average day, but what would a typical day or week look like for you? Dave: So I'll answer in terms of a week, because the day is just too chaotic. Dave: The only day that I understand how it's going to go in advance and it's new, it's changed again, but is my Mondays. Dave: So in the day job, I work compressed hours now. Dave: So I do four days a week, kind of 830 till 615 gelong days. Dave: And then my evenings are dedicated to these places. Dave: Whereas Monday, that's my poppy indie day. Dave: So Monday now, we get in, get a coffee, get a bacon roll usually. Dave: And that's six, 8 hours selling. Dave: And we're trying to get into as many accounts as possible with the brewery. Dave: It's myself I know I'm fortunate to know a lot of people in the craft beer industry because of hoppy. Dave: So I've got a lot of connections, a lot of breweries that have bars, a lot of bottle shops that were in the same space together, a lot of pubs that I've gotten to know over the years that I can now lean on to try and buy beer. Dave: So at the moment, I'm leaning on my connections as best I can to get us trade accounts. Dave: Quite cool. Dave: We've had our beer in almost 100 outlets already. Dave: We've been selling for three weeks, really, so it's been quite good so far. Dave: But that's my Monday is really selling as best I can. Dave: I'm not wonderful on the phone. Dave: I'm one of these people that can fire off 50 emails in the time it takes to pluck up the courage to dial one number. Dave: But we're working on that, and that's alongside Charlote, who's someone that we picked up working at Hoppy Maidenhead. Dave: Although her background is Windsor, she's a Windsor local. Dave: She used to work at Windsor and Eaton as well, but she's now helping me on social media and on sales and all that. Dave: So my Mondays, they're relatively clear. Dave: The rest of the week, for me personally, is just abject chaos, it must be said. Dave: So every day I am somewhere, usually multiple places, doing multiple jobs. Rob (Host): All at once? Dave: Yeah, all at once. Dave: So it tends to be like, today's a great example. Dave: Got up at eight, feeling terrible, should have got up at seven, but I knew I was going to feel terrible. Dave: Got dressed, jumped in the car, immediately went straight to Heathrow, where I worked my day job, which I manage several teams and a couple of products. Dave: Many, many hours on the phone on teams, arguing, battling, and in any gap I find, which is usually lunch, trying to deal with comms or paying someone invoice or other or a staff HR issue. Dave: So I've ended up managing quite a lot of people as well, across both lives, and it's just trying to fit it all in. Dave: I owe and am accountable for the day job as well, so it's not like I can just dial that in. Dave: I have to fight for that. Dave: And then there's always something in the evening now and that's fine. Dave: And then sometimes I judge for Siba, or sometimes I do this or that, or go to a beer festival. Dave: Yeah, I tend to work seven day weeks every single week. Dave: I tend to do at least two jobs every day, full hours in both. Dave: Eventually, something's going to have to give. Dave: What I hope for in the long term is that this is my life. Dave: I still enjoy the day job, I still enjoy it, but I can be using all of those skills to develop this place rather than to develop that. Dave: And if there was enough money in the beer industry, I would be. Dave: But in the meantime, I'm making sure that other people around me have got jobs and have got careers and I'm developing them, and I'm happy with that, too. Dave: I need to look after myself eventually. Rob (Host): Yeah, absolutely. Rob (Host): You've got to start with yourself and then everything else comes from that. Rob (Host): But how does it feel having those many jobs and commitments? Rob (Host): So I guess you're always on the go. Rob (Host): There's not a chance to step down. Dave: No. Dave: It's kind of a blessing and a curse with beer, which is most of the people I get on with. Dave: The best I've ended up hiring, really. Dave: So it's all working with, in the case of Alex and Ali, our founders here. Dave: So there's always a double edged sword because there's a lot of pressure to not let them down as well. Dave: So it's know we're mates, we'll go out for a beer after work. Dave: But if I don't hit a sales target, or if I don't manage our costs, or if I don't get enough customers through the door, then I might not be able to pay them, and that's their livelihood. Dave: It is a bit of a comfort blanket for me, the fact that I've got an income elsewhere. Dave: As much as it's exhausting me to do it, it does alleviate that pressure very slightly. Dave: But I've got across these two businesses now, hoppy and Indy, ten people that rely on me for their livelihood. Dave: And it is stressful. Dave: It's hard to manage, especially when I go out, drink with them and they're my mates. Dave: Sometimes that can be hard to kind of trade off. Dave: Yeah. Dave: In the day job, I don't have that pressure. Dave: So I'm boss for a number of people. Dave: I manage products. Dave: We deal in sort of multimillion pound revenues in that place. Dave: Not that I do. Dave: I'm on salary. Dave: I don't see any of that. Dave: But it's big business, and if that does badly, there's a group to protect us as individuals, whereas here it is all on me, and it is stressful. Rob (Host): And does it feel better? Rob (Host): The fact that you're doing that and you're coming back to an industry, a place you love, literally a place you. Dave: Love that you can do that. Rob (Host): So in a way, you can maybe recharge when you're doing some of this. Dave: Look, people listening to this will relate. Dave: It's a very difficult industry at the moment, and I think there's a lot of exhausted, tired, quite lonely people, and especially leaders, everyone. Dave: But people who is like, you've got to look at yourself and think, is this going to work? Dave: Am I successful? Dave: Have I failed? Dave: It's very, very stressful, and there's no way. Dave: We've had several fight or flight moments in this business. Dave: The first one was Covid. Dave: We suffered a very close personal family loss at the beginning of COVID And it's like, either we stop, or if I can swear on your pod, I don't know, we f****** fight. Dave: And we chose the latter, and I've done that over and over. Dave: And the reason for that is we do love this industry and what it can represent and the people that are in it, as I've said already, and the beer, of course, when it's good, and I wouldn't give it up, and I've had to ask myself that question many, many times, probably hundreds of times, probably weekly, but I still wouldn't give it up, which is why we're fighting on. Dave: And there will be more losses this year. Dave: But the people that survived, they would have done so because they're in it together and we're looking out for each other, and that's why we're here. Rob (Host): Here's to that. Rob (Host): What have been, I guess, the biggest step up was it going from not being in the industry to going to a hobby place to going to a second hobby place, or going to opening a brewery and taproom? Dave: Certainly the biggest financial commitment was the brewery. Dave: But it's an interesting story because for me, we'd done it before at that point. Dave: We'd started a new site, we'd spent money, we'd invested. Dave: We'd crowdsourced, crowdfunded, sorry, we'd been there. Dave: So for Naomi and I, it's kind of like the same again, but bigger. Dave: But we understood the steps. Dave: We understood when the pinch points and the pressures would be and how it was going to feel, and it kind of went that way. Dave: So I wasn't that stressed during the build up of the brewery, really. Dave: I trusted Alex implicitly as a brewer, and his beers are proving that. Dave: And I thought I could sell the beer. Dave: And so far I've been able to. Dave: And, yeah, we know how to spin up a business now. Dave: We've done it a few times. Dave: The toughest one was actually maidenhead, our second sight, because when we heard from Windsor. Dave: Sorry for going off on a tangent, but remember a particular terrible speech from Donald Rumsfeld, which is the known knowns. Dave: The known unknowns. Dave: The unknown unknowns. Rob (Host): I know that one from being a history and international relations student and doing many an essay about those knowns and unknowns. Dave: I think the unknown unknowns is what saved us the first time around. Dave: We had no idea what we were getting into. Dave: Whereas for maidenhead, we knew we were doing it again, but at three times the size and five times the cost. Dave: And that was the scariest of the launches. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): Proof yet again that ignorance is often bliss and you can deal with things when they come up. Dave: Luckily, we seem to have been sort of responsive and reactive enough to roll with the punches from then on. Dave: But we had no idea what we were getting ourselves into. Dave: People all around us saying, well, that won't work, that won't work. Dave: And it did. Dave: But I definitely thought there'd be an easier time to be had than it turned out to be. Dave: The case. Rob (Host): Yeah, that's all right. Rob (Host): Well, we roll with the punches on those and you say, obviously, people saying things might not work or anything like that. Rob (Host): What would you say that others should know if they're considering going into opening a bottle shop, a tap room, a brewery or any of those things in every industry? Dave: I'd answer that in series, but I'll try and be brief. Dave: Don't open a bottle shop. Dave: That's the first one. Dave: If you're going to try and sell beer, you have to have drafts and drinking, because I think community is the only thing that makes this industry viable right now. Dave: Those close knit connections, that desire for your mate who owns a beer business to succeed, it only exists if you spend time together. Dave: So, for started, we always knew we'd be both. Dave: And that's something we actually learned from Mad Squirrel, where Naomi used to know. Dave: They have a big selection of takeaway and we started by visiting their Cheshire branch, which is their smallest branch as well. Dave: Wall of takeaway, four beers in the corner. Dave: And that's expanded and expanded from then on. Dave: But I think without the latter, the former wouldn't know. Dave: You get to know people once they've had two beers off draft, you go and grab a can. Dave: It's like, hey, Rob, try this, have a bit of this. Dave: We'll share it. Dave: And you do that with a table of four regulars that are in. Dave: And then you start to get them on that journey of trying the weird and wonderful. Dave: You can't just have the can sales now. Dave: Categorically. Dave: There's not enough margin to survive. Dave: Especially you've got businesses selling a lot of cheap beer on the Internet. Dave: You've got this real squeeze from the supermarket, you've got this real squeeze from a few other sort of distributors and websites. Dave: I won't name now, but that doesn't work. Dave: You need the people. Dave: So tap room and brewery very quickly. Dave: It can work, but, my God, it's not easy at the moment. Dave: The margins are so tight, you need to charge a lot, unless you're going to run it yourself, staff it yourself, live in it and be on your own. Dave: If you have to pay staff, you have to pay any kind of decent rent. Dave: In the southeast, it's very tough to make it work. Dave: So just be very sure of your business plan and your numbers and check them with people who are already in the industry. Dave: Said earlier, people are friendly. Dave: If you say, this is what I think my forecasts are going to be for this site, someone will answer and tell you what you've missed. Dave: Correct it, they'll help. Dave: I don't see another business starting up and think, I hope they fail. Dave: I see them starting up and think, well, firstly, maybe I can sell some beer to them now I've got the brewery as well. Dave: I play both sides of it. Dave: But secondly, I hope they know what they're doing. Dave: And that's where we are now. Dave: It can work. Dave: There are places still profitable, successful, happy, thriving. Dave: It's very hard. Rob (Host): And I guess that's where you probably see the synergies more, between a brewery and a tap room and having those altogether different reasons for people to visit. Dave: I think the brewery tap is critical, really. Dave: I think, again, it's engagement. Dave: I know some places do very well when they can't have people on site and seeing the brewery, seeing the brews get the shiny. Dave: But people want to feel like they're. Rob (Host): A part of something. Dave: And if they come in and drink and they can see the tanks the beer came out of, they do. Dave: But I think that's really important. Rob (Host): What do you think people would be most surprised to know about a hoppy place or indie rabble? Dave: It's hard to say. Dave: I think people. Dave: It's a compliment to hoppy. Dave: I think people assume that, see our website and stuff, that we're bigger than we are. Dave: I think that's true of a lot of beer businesses. Dave: So the biggest bottle shop online, bottle shop that I knew of, they've unfortunately gone under, but was a little place called optimism. Dave: And it turned out it was one guy called Rob with some boxes of beer in his garage. Dave: It was a tiny, tiny operation that he had. Dave: The country's probably largest weird and wonderful beer following. Dave: And then you look at sort of outlets like beer 52, and it's another galaxy. Dave: And we've been compared to them. Dave: It's ridiculous. Dave: Ordering a beer is my brother in law, Jason, and I packing a beer is my brother in law, Jason, and I mostly him shipping beer is often me in the back of my stupid car that's not a van. Dave: We're a small little outlet. Dave: And hopefully people think we do well. Dave: But it's common. Dave: Even this place, it's polished, it's big, it's shiny, but it's a tiny number of people making it happen. Dave: And hopefully we seem like we know what we're doing, I guess will be the thing. Dave: I'm not sure I do, but yeah. Dave: I don't know. Rob (Host): I definitely do, though. Rob (Host): You've mentioned a few of your different hats that you wear, but what's your favorite hat to wear? Dave: Hosting beer events, for sure. Dave: So I like talking to people. Dave: I like to feel like I know what I'm talking about. Dave: So in it, a lot of my time was spent as a consultant. Dave: So going on site with our bit of software, I know more than the customer. Dave: I can be in front of one person or 500. Dave: It doesn't faze me at all. Dave: I love that kind of thing. Dave: So in the early days, and it's also really good, it got us a lot of customers. Dave: I'd host beer schools every month. Dave: I'd be there. Dave: I'd be giving people beer. Dave: History. Dave: Taking people through a journey. Dave: A lot of the people that came into winter in the early days, there was no other craft offering in town at all. Dave: They've had bitters, they've had lagers, they've had traditional english pale ales. Dave: And suddenly we're turning up with double and triple hops, tazy insanity, sour beer, imperial stout pastry stuff, and getting that connection where someone that I'm talking to is excited about something they've never had before and then wanting me to tell them more about it. Dave: That's absolutely the best part of the job. Dave: Second best is buying beer like a kid in a sweet shop, just going around ordering cases of this, trying to be financially responsible while I do. Rob (Host): It's always having a personal mindset, but also remembering it's for the business and you need to sell it as well. Dave: Yeah. Dave: I like people to come to me and ask me about beer. Dave: I love talking about beer. Dave: I love connecting over a great beer. Dave: Those are the benefits. Rob (Host): And before we recorded this, we're sort of preparing for it. Rob (Host): And you mentioned your personality type. Rob (Host): Is that something you want to talk about a little bit? Dave: Well, I think for everything that I've just said, I'm actually quite a shy and reserved person, so I'm confident when I know my subject. Dave: So people coming to me and asking me about a beer is really important to me on, like, a personal level, because if I'm at home, I'll just be at home quietly, like on my laptop or for the 510 minutes a day that I've actually got playing a computer game, something like that. Dave: Sometimes I have to force myself to go out. Dave: I really do, because it's like people engagement. Dave: But once I'm there, if I didn't have fear, if I didn't have something that I knew intricately, I'd still be very shy and reserved. Dave: But because I do know that I can just jump in and it's funny. Rob (Host): I can totally relate to all of that. Dave: What shared interest does for you. Rob (Host): I know, yeah, it does just help, doesn't it? Dave: All of my experiences at the pub. Dave: It's like you get your beer, you sit down and you say, what do you think of that? Dave: And it just starts a conversation every time. Dave: It's wonderful, because otherwise it'll be like, how was your day? Dave: That's so robotic. Dave: And then that whole sort of english thing of, how are you? Dave: Yeah, great, mate. Dave: How are you? Dave: Yeah, great. Dave: Okay, now, what beer takes that away? Dave: So I love it for that 100%. Rob (Host): So we've got this far in the interview without me asking, what's your favorite beer? Dave: I think my favorite beer isn't one I get much of now, but a specific beer, if I had to name one, I always cite Sierra Nevada pale ale. Dave: And for me, that's because that was a gateway beer. Dave: I remember probably 1213 years ago, something like that. Dave: It suddenly started appearing in fullest pubs. Dave: And I went from drinking either just whatever lager they had, or pints of ESB or pride, to, oh, what's this hoppy, weird thing there? Dave: And trying it and just having my mind absolutely blown by the flavor that it had compared to anything that I'd experienced before. Dave: We were starting to have a craft beer scene very early days at that point, but I wasn't aware of it, and that really opened my eyes to what beer could be. Dave: And since then, of course, great for me, such a commercially available beer. Dave: It was in Tesco. Dave: Again, I'm not here to gate sheet people's buying choices. Dave: I do think that supermarkets are a great way in for new customers, and we're not rich enough in this industry to turn away any potential new customers. Dave: So I embrace that. Dave: I don't sell those kind of beers. Dave: I can't compete. Dave: But I embrace supermarket craft beer. Dave: Yeah, they could get three Sierra Nevadas in Tesco for a fiverr, I think it was. Dave: And I did that a lot. Dave: And that was the beer that started me on all of this. Dave: And since been to both breweries. Dave: Did a little pilgrimage as part of our wedding honeymoon to Chico, I got the opportunity with my day job to go to, well, Georgia, but only a state and a half away. Dave: So I rented a car and drove there and went to mills into the river as well in North Carolina, and I think the best beer city experience I've had in Asheville and North Carolina as well, with burial and Sierra and the likes. Dave: There are still some people in this country that don't understand how completely in the pocket or favour of the american beer market we are. Dave: Everything that's here wouldn't exist without what they did that people think oh, it's all Budweiser. Dave: No, without America, this country's beer scene wouldn't exist. Dave: And, yeah, that was the beer that started me off on all of this. Dave: Absolutely. Rob (Host): Speaking with Henry, who was at Darkstar beforehand, and their story is about the Darkstar founder bringing hops back in a suitcase and all that, and you hear lots of that, and America had such. Dave: A. Rob (Host): That's all we have to rub together. Rob (Host): It's interesting to see that some of that coming back a bit, isn't it? Rob (Host): So it sort of comes into vogue again. Dave: Yeah, a slight segue to that. Dave: But what we're doing with the english hop market now is really remarkable. Dave: Obviously, a lot of them are flights from sort of american origin hops originally, but I got my hands on a batch of uk cascades recently when we brewed at Ampersand for one of our launch collabs, and it's absolutely incredible. Dave: So this country can do a lot more than just fuggles and like, we're. Rob (Host): Very used to doing fuggles and golding and doing that well. Rob (Host): And some of the new hops that are coming out there, they range, I think they're still a hybrid between english and us, I think, and you might have to use them differently to a us or english hop. Dave: I think it's come up quite a lot recently, but the word terroir, as it relates to beer, our appellation, to use the wine word, it's not the same. Dave: Our soil is not the same, the humidity and the temperature are not the same, but we can get very close. Dave: I love a traditional bitter brewed. Dave: Well, don't get me wrong, I love english beer styles, and I'm not actually the biggest fan of hazy's. Dave: Like all of the big, incredibly yellow, incredibly aromatic tropical stuff, I tend to prefer something big and bitter. Dave: But yeah, what our country can do, if you know how to use the hops, is pretty remarkable now, which maybe is good with the cost of shipping and the cost of fuel and energy and all of that kind of stuff. Rob (Host): What'S your best place to enjoy a beer? Dave: I'm going to contradict myself massively by naming one venue, but then I'll try and name a second one. Dave: So, on occasion, everything that I just said about being the center of attention, about loving people, about loving talking about beer, I also think I'd quite like to just be anonymous, but still have a drink. Dave: So there's a pub called the bell in Wolfram St. Dave: Lawrence that has amongst a good food menu and a log burning fire and a very dog friendly, friendly atmosphere. Dave: Generally. Dave: Rothhouse heiferwites on draft for some reason. Dave: A load of traditional cast beer, another lager. Dave: But then rot house heifervites, and they're Pilsner as well, on one of the big traditional german beer fonts. Dave: And Naomi and I, when we feel the need to know things have got too much, we don't want to have yet another worry about the cost of hops or the cost of rent. Dave: We go there, they do a lovely beer, bread with balsamic vinegar, oil, get some salt, get that, get Heftavis and stare at the log burner. Dave: That's my favorite happy place right now, excluding through our outlets. Dave: But then, other than that, anywhere with good beer. Dave: Really. Rob (Host): What'S the one thing you wish people knew about beer? Dave: I'm going to have to answer that like a financially minded man. Dave: What it costs to produce. Dave: Honestly, we're at a point now with malt costs being 50% up on two years ago, co2 costs being 200% up on two years ago, I could go on all night electricity. Dave: I should, by rights, charge over seven quid for a pint of beer. Dave: I don't, because people can't pay it. Dave: I understand the pressure that locals are under as well. Dave: Of course I do. Dave: And we want to be sport, we want to be thriving. Dave: But it is very, very hard and it can be quite stressful when you get people questioning what you charge. Dave: And that's the main reason we don't sell anything that's in a supermarket. Dave: It's not principles, it's not gatekeeping. Dave: It's because if a beer is two quid there, but I have to charge four quid for it. Dave: I can't countenance the conversation constantly. Dave: Well, they ordered more, so they pay less. Dave: They need less margin per product because it's a loss leader for them. Dave: All of that stuff I can't deal with. Dave: It's very hard for this industry at the moment, and that's not the fault of the industry. Dave: That's a dry answer. Dave: But, yeah, it gets to me. Rob (Host): No, I think that's totally fair. Rob (Host): And I think you can make that case when you're brewing the beer on site. Rob (Host): It doesn't get fresher than this, does it? Rob (Host): Are there any changes you'd make to the beer industry? Dave: The pub tie. Dave: So I mentioned earlier, mad Squirrel, that's when Amy started in beer. Dave: The reason that they did that, and I've tried to mirror this business model myself, is it's very well known that there are a tiny, tiny number of untied outlets in this country. Dave: There are something like 30,000 untied outlets in a sea of hundreds of thousands of venues. Dave: But loads of those also have equipment ties. Dave: So if you're a free house originally, then Diageo or cause or whoever Heineken is a big part of this. Dave: They go in and say, well, we know you're a free house, but wouldn't you like a brand new seller? Dave: And then you have to take their products and oh, don't worry, we have craft too. Dave: And then that's. Dave: And the public in the majority don't care if they're into a hazy beer now. Dave: They don't care if it's owned by Heineken or whoever else. Dave: They're not bothered. Dave: We need more routes to market. Dave: The reason that we started with a brewery. Dave: Sorry. Dave: The reason that we started with two bottle shops and bars before we established the brewery is we knew we needed sites to move our beer. Dave: And in an ideal world, I'd have had three or four. Dave: And that's because I can't guarantee taps anywhere else. Dave: Getting a tie on a lager, it's impossible. Dave: It takes years of reputation, constant badgering, which is time I don't have. Dave: And we're all battling that. Dave: There's 2000 odd breweries in this country and we're battling in reality the same 2000, 3000 outlets. Dave: All of us fighting for each other's outlets. Dave: And that was very good work done in the defend breweries directly owning all of these sites. Dave: But that now has really been turned on its head. Dave: And it's not backfired. Dave: Because initially it was a good idea, the pub side model, but now we need to look at it again. Dave: We really do. Dave: Because it's just too hard to sell your beer. Dave: And it shouldn't be. Dave: It's such a massive part of british culture. Dave: But yet there's six or eight breweries that represent 80 or 90% of all beer available nationwide. Dave: Yeah, it's very frustrating. Rob (Host): What are some of the trends you're seeing in the beer and brewing scene? Dave: Some of them are enforced. Dave: The most recent one is with beer duty changes, which basically for anyone who doesn't know, it used to be that if you were a small brewery producing less than 5000 hectiliters a year, half a million liters, that you could get quite a significant amount of tax relief on that. Dave: And then above that level, it jumps. Dave: And the justification for that is we're a small brewery. Dave: I'm producing 2000 liters of beer at a time. Dave: Heineken are producing 100,000 or more liters of beer at a time scales of economy are a factor as staffing costs are a massive massive part of running a beer business. Dave: We didn't have access to that so we got cheaper tax. Dave: The changes that have come in recently allow any beer under 3.4% to get full duty relief. Dave: So you see all these big macro brands that had 3.8% beers suddenly got 3.4% beers and they're getting hundreds of millions of pounds per product in tax relief off the treasury. Dave: So the treasury think they've helped the industry with these changes? Dave: I'm convinced of that. Dave: And they've been hoodwinked. Dave: They've been lobbied successfully by the likes of Heineken. Dave: Cause whoever Milesden Carlsberg to make these changes. Dave: It's going to cost treasury billions. Dave: And it's very frustrating because we've lost advantages that we had and yeah. Dave: I don't know. Dave: It's a tough time at the minute. Rob (Host): In some ways it's made a level playing field for larger macros that had a head start already. Dave: Exactly. Dave: Apologies for any Man City fans but it's saying Man City and maiden Ed United. Dave: Will you play on the same pitch? Dave: What do you like? Dave: The resources aren't the same though. Dave: Are they? Rob (Host): It's still football around. Dave: Aren't you? Dave: I'm also a football fan. Dave: I apologise to anyone. Rob (Host): Who is it? Rob (Host): Maidenhead. Dave: I support Arsenal. Dave: I'm a Londoner. Dave: A north londoner by heart. Dave: But I'm also. Dave: And hoppy is. Dave: Excuse the dogs in the background. Dave: Hoppy place is now a corporate sponsor of Maidenhead United which is very cheap. Rob (Host): You've become so corporate. Dave: I know it's not quite like sponsoring a Premiership club but it means I have a season ticket there and I go along and support them as often as I can. Dave: And yeah. Dave: Again it's another little community. Dave: There's now eight to ten sort of people I go with every week. Rob (Host): So there are people in the industry that you think have been instrumental to you coming into the industry and growing 100%? Dave: I think it's something I came from a much more corporate cutthroat world. Dave: And as I said earlier the experience of just how good everyone is in the craft beer industry rubbed off on me really quickly. Dave: I now spend a lot of time in the beer forums trying to help other people. Dave: I am trying to be altruistic. Dave: There's no agenda there. Dave: I can see a question pop up. Dave: I can help answer it. Dave: So I try to. Dave: And I think the person who inspired some if not all of that was one particular individual, which is Andy. Dave: Elusive brewing. Dave: I'm sure everyone listening to this knows who Andy is. Rob (Host): Andy Parker. Dave: Andy Parker. Dave: Nicest man in beer. Dave: Don't tell him. Dave: He said so. Dave: He just got time for everyone. Dave: Always, he's got a favour to offer everyone. Dave: Always. Dave: He'll collab with you if your brewery is a shoebox or Oakham or anyone in between. Dave: He's just there for the betterment of this industry. Dave: And it's so pleasing to see people like that. Dave: And I also think he models that behaviour in others around him. Dave: So he's brilliant. Dave: He's one of many. Dave: Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great people in this industry, but he was a big part of the way. Dave: I now try and behave, hope to emulate some of that in what we do here. Rob (Host): And I've seen as well, that you've been invited to judge and leads. Rob (Host): Judge by Siba. Dave: Yes. Rob (Host): How did that come around? Dave: So, one of the things I decided I had to do before opening hoppy. Dave: I seek qualifications, it's something that I do. Dave: So I started working full time when I was 19. Dave: And before that, I'd done a couple of years contracting, but for a mate as well. Dave: I've been in it and in tech, really, since I was 17. Dave: I pretty much dropped out of college, got a couple of c's, doesn't matter. Dave: And then found my industry of passion, so to speak, and then realized I needed to be qualified. Dave: Did a business degree in my spare time, which took seven years, because I was working full time. Dave: And then when that ran out, I didn't know what to do in my evening. Dave: It was before we'd opened. Dave: Thought, I've got too much spare time. Dave: What do I do with that? Dave: I don't enjoy it. Dave: Of course not. Dave: I qualified for something else. Dave: And knowing that we might eventually start our beer business, I targeted. Dave: It's no longer. Dave: Well, it might run again, and I hope it does. Dave: But the Beer Insider Academy, which is like a retail arm, if you like, of the IBD, which is institute of Brewing and Distilling, they offered a course called the beer smellier, which I undertook. Dave: So I became qualified, basically, to talk nonsense about beer. Dave: I'm a professional s*** talker now. Dave: Sorry for the language. Dave: And from there, I was like, what do I do with this? Dave: And I was aware of Siva because I'd seen, actually, at Windsor and Eaton, I'd seen that they had Siva certificates on the wall and stuff like that, but I had no real reason to pursue them at that point beyond, I've got some spare time. Dave: I want to learn more about beer. Dave: So I took my beer from Lea skills and sent them a DM on Twitter, actually. Dave: And I said, I see you do beer judging. Dave: I'm a beer judge now. Dave: And I was like, okay, I didn't expect it necessarily to lead anywhere, but they contacted us and gave me basically, yeah, come along to. Dave: It was an LBA event in London. Dave: I can't remember where it's hosted anymore. Rob (Host): LBA, London, London association, which now is. Dave: Huge at the time. Dave: It's still quite a small organization. Dave: It's hundreds of members now. Dave: Elusives in there. Dave: Windsor and Eaton are in there, even though they're outside the M 25, don't tell anyone, wild card are in there and so on and so forth. Dave: I judged there and judged under a guy called Neil Walker, the first time I ever judged, who now is their communications director and a big part of all the judging that they do. Dave: And he kind of taught me how to lead a table of judges of mixed experience and judge beer well. Dave: And I got a real taste for it. Dave: I was very lucky in the future round to judge with Melissa Cole, who equally absolutely fantastic, one of the best beer judges and beer writers in this country. Dave: And yeah, it sparked something in me. Dave: So I did that about a dozen times. Dave: And then one day Neil said, well, we need another table lead, so we'll put you into that. Dave: So now I sort of do table lead stuff. Dave: So now I'm the person turning up and telling everyone else how they should judge. Dave: And it's not telling, but it's kind of like herding cats at times, especially when alcohol is involved. Dave: It's really trying to pull it all together, get one vaguely mixed opinion of. Rob (Host): The beer you're wanting to calibrate a bit as well altogether, who might be from complete different walks of life and different beer experiences. Dave: But it's great fun. Dave: Again, I said I love hosting beer events. Dave: I love seeming knowledgeable about beer. Dave: I hope I actually am knowledgeable about beer, but it's all fantastic experience and I love stuff like that. Rob (Host): Have you got any other beer events that are happening at indie rabble or hoppy places? Dave: So hoppy's got a couple. Dave: We're hosting an IPA school probably after this comes out. Rob (Host): So we're coming out hopefully in start of December with this one. Dave: So we'd have just missed that. Dave: But we've got a dark beer night happening early December as well. Dave: So a stout showcase and I love to do things like that. Dave: Talk about beer. Dave: All the events that we do and we try to do one or two a month is on the hobby park website and also on social media. Dave: The brewery is building up to Christmas now. Dave: So we've got a big Christmas fair where we're bringing traders in. Dave: It's something we actually got inspired to do by double barrels. Dave: Another Redding brewery. Dave: They host Christmas markets and they're always great. Dave: Go there, buy a pair of earrings, drink three pints of Parker. Dave: Love it. Rob (Host): Big tickle around there. Dave: Yeah, we want to try and replicate that to the best degree. Dave: We can showcase some local traders and drink some tasty beer and then sort of build up to Christmas and all that entails. Dave: Bit of chaos. Dave: New Year's plans will be determined very soon, and then January is going to be very event focused because we need people in. Dave: So lots of tastings, live music. Dave: Indie rabble at that point is going to kick off its live music program. Dave: So something that we've always wanted to do in Windsor is bring another live music venue back to town because there's very little, there's the old ticket hall, but it's rough and it's only good after midnight. Dave: And that's only if you're drunk enough to not realize how bad the beer is. Dave: We want for those with a sophisticated palate, I e. Dave: You don't want to drink stale Heineken to come and enjoy some of your music. Dave: We'll kick that off. Dave: But yeah, events, events, events is what we need. Dave: So you get people in, get them engaged, enjoying something. Dave: Beer. Dave: I don't believe that beer, as much as I've just said I love judging, I love talking about beer. Dave: The beer should be great. Dave: It needs to be great. Dave: But I want people to come here because of everything else we offer as well. Dave: I want them to come first and foremost because of the community. Dave: Come meet their friends over a good pint. Dave: Don't just go and get a beer. Dave: You can just go and get a beer anyway. Dave: You can do that in a weather spoons by yourself. Dave: What we want is not that we want people to come together, have a good time together. Rob (Host): Thank you very much, Dave. Rob (Host): So where can people follow you and keep up to date with everything? Rob (Host): Dave and everything? Rob (Host): A hobby place and indie rabble. Dave: So we're on all of the socials at both a hobby place and indie rabble. Dave: So if it's anything about our beer or our beer businesses, reach out to those channels, it'll be me that picks it up. Dave: But from a business perspective, if you want to just talk to me about any aspect of opening a beer business, the beer industry, anything like that. Dave: Then Facebook's probably the best place you search for Dave Hayward. Dave: You should find me. Dave: If you don't, you can also send me an email, which is Dave at Ahobbyplace Co. Dave: UK. Dave: Yeah, I'm always happy to talk to anyone about this industry. Dave: Really. Dave: I spend probably far too much time procrastinating talking to other people about their businesses. Dave: Bearing in mind I already have three full time jobs, I probably ought to focus. Rob (Host): You don't have time to procrastinate? Dave: Well, no, I don't. Dave: But it's who I've always been. Dave: I'm always spinning plates and excited by the one that's already crashed on the floor somewhere else at the same time. Dave: It's who I am. Dave: That's very good. Rob (Host): Well, thank you very much and probably say cheers to that. Dave: Cheers. Dave: Thanks for having me on. Rob (Host): Cheers. Rob (Host): Well, a very big thank you to Dave, and I suppose I should thank Simcoe and copper too for their contribution. Rob (Host): Thank you as well for listening, and I hope you can join me on the next one. Rob (Host): And this is the part where I ask for your help. Rob (Host): If you haven't done so already, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a review or rating, or share it with others. Rob (Host): This really helps us out and helps other people find the podcast, particularly as we're starting out. Rob (Host): And you can follow us on social media. Rob (Host): Search for Wearbeer people all one word. Rob (Host): You can also email us at wearebeerpeoplepod@gmail.com let us know what you think, share your thoughts, and if you have any recommendations for beer people you'd like to hear from. Rob (Host): And until next time, don't forget you, me, us, them, we are all beer people.

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