JD

15 Dec

We meet with Jamie Duffield (who you may know as JD) the canning line lead at Siren Craft Brew.

This is a story that begins with the welcome of the woodsmoke.

You know that feeling when you're out for a winter walk, you're in the countryside. It might be a bit cold or rainy, or you've been out walking for a while and are starting to feel the chill.

But on the very edge of the breeze you catch a smell of woodsmoke and, not long after that, you turn a corner and see in the distance a pub down the lane.

A pub with A warm incandescent glow pouring from its windows into the street and a wisp of smoke reaching out from the roof to the sky.

That right there is a siren song for the senses of what's to come.

At this point it's practically a lost cause. You know you're going into the pub and you can almost feel yourself being warmed by the thought of the welcome, the atmosphere, food, drink and the crackle of the fireplace.

This might sound like a digression - and it's a little indulgent, but it is relevant I promise.

Because Today's guest is Jamie Duffield who you may know as JD. JD's the Canning Line Lead at Siren Craft Brew and he's previously been Head Brewer at Wild Weather. JD's known for innovating in beer styles and he was recently involved at Siren making a cracking smoked porter, Fire & Stars, a lovely dark beer that truly evoked that welcome of the woodsmoke. it's available in bottleshops but is not currently on Siren's website and I'd recommend you get yourself a can or two!

JD describes himself as being interested in lots of things - luckily for us, one of his many interests has been getting his head round brewing and packaging brilliant beers that we can enjoy. We're going to hear all about JD's story of brewing, foraging for Spruce tips and - here's a teaser - I may have asked JD to play us out with one of his other interests, so stay tuned for that

We're recording this in The George & Dragon - Siren's countryside pub in Swallowfield, and yes the first thing I noticed was the smell of woodsmoke when I arrived and when I entered the pub, there was already a roaring fire going.

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Intro/outro music: That One Time by Midnight Daydream

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Transcript

Please note this is an automated transcript (so will certainly contain errors and mistranslations but should give you a good gist of the conversation):

JD: He just likes kind of normal beer and Guinness and stuff like that. JD: So we always used to bring over the most experimental beers for him to try and we knew we'd got it right when we invited him to take a sample of John Peele out of the tank and he just. JD: It came out luminous yellow with a head on the top of it that looked like whipped cream. JD: And he just took a sip of it and just went, it's a bit thick. JD: And I looked at Ian and we're like, yeah, we got it, we got it. Rob (Host): Hello and welcome to we are beer people, a podcast all about the many different people who help us enjoy beer. Rob (Host): I'm your host, Rob Cadwell, and I reckon if you're listening to this, then there's a good chance that you are one of the beer people too. Rob (Host): You might be involved in the world of beer. Rob (Host): You may want to find out more about the industry, or perhaps you simply enjoy drinking the stuff. Rob (Host): So join me now as I have a chat with one of the beer people. Rob (Host): This is a story that begins with the welcome of the wood smoke. Rob (Host): You know that feeling when you're out for a winter walk? Rob (Host): You're in the countryside and it might be a bit cold or rainy, or you've been out walking for a while and are starting to feel the chill. Rob (Host): But on the edge of the breeze you catch a smell of wood smoke. Rob (Host): And not long after that, you turn a corner and see in the distance a pub down the lane. Rob (Host): A pub with a warm incandescent glow pouring from its windows into the street and a wisp of smoke reaching out from the roof to the sky. Rob (Host): That right there is a siren song for the senses of what's to come. Rob (Host): And at this point, it's practically a lost cause. Rob (Host): You know, you're going into the pub and you can almost feel yourself being warmed by the thought of the welcome, the atmosphere, the food, drink and the crackle of the fireplace. Rob (Host): This might sound like a digression and it's a little indulgent, but it is relevant, I promise, because today's guest is Jamie Duffield, who you may know as JD. Rob (Host): JD is the canning line lead at siren craft Brew and he's previously been head brewer at Wild Weather. Rob (Host): JD is known for innovating in beer styles and he was recently involved at siren making a cracking smoke porter called fire and stars, a lovely dark beer that truly evoked that welcome of the wood smoke. Rob (Host): And JD describes himself as being interested in lots of things. Rob (Host): Luckily for us, one of his many interests has been getting his head round brewing and packaging brilliant beers that we can enjoy. Rob (Host): And we're going to hear all about JD's story of brewing foraging for spruce tips. Rob (Host): And here's a teaser. Rob (Host): I may have asked JD to play us out with one of his other interests, so stay tuned for that. Rob (Host): We're recording this in the georgian dragon siren's countryside pub in Swallowfield. Rob (Host): And yes, the first thing I noticed was the smell of wood smoke when I arrived. Rob (Host): When I entered the pub, there was already a roaring fire ready to meet us. Rob (Host): For those that don't know you, can you take us back to the beginning of your beer story? Rob (Host): Why beer and what brought you here? JD: Well, basically I have this terrible affliction, which is that I'm interested in lots of things and I really can't bear the idea of not knowing how something is made and I just can't leave things alone. JD: I don't sleep. JD: So just as with every young person, when they start trying alcohol and things like that, going out with their friends, I was probably one of the few people sat there drinking some beer, going like, I've got to know how this stuff's made, though, and everyone else is just knocking it back. JD: And so my house just ends up being full of books. JD: And when I had more time, I just used to spend a lot of time reading about things and then telling my friends, much to their boredom, and had a spell where I was doing sort of mechanical clocks and watches and taking them apart and putting them back together. JD: And I bored the pants off my friends, just going like, oh, did you know about this type of escapement? JD: Isn't it really interesting that it works this way? JD: And they're like, no, it's not. JD: Not to them, anyway. JD: But I was fortunate enough, and I suppose this is the same story for lots of young people growing up. JD: When I did that, my friends also happened to be interested in beer. JD: So when I said, hey, did you know about this aspect of beer? JD: They'd be like, that is interesting, actually. JD: And not only is it interesting, we want to start reading about it too. JD: So all of my friends, my close friends, anyway, of which I've kind of got three or four of them that I grew up with, we all started reading about beer, we all started having a go at making beer at the same time. JD: And it became just a slightly different way of going out every weekend to do something to do with alcohol. JD: Our going out every weekend to do stuff with alcohol was actually kind of the making of it and then the enjoying it and the sharing it afterwards. JD: So we had like a four person homebrew club, basically unofficially. JD: So, yeah, that was kind of the start of my beer journey. JD: I guess I have always just liked being in a situation where you've contributed in some way to somebody else's good time, and beer is definitely the vehicle for a good time, traditionally. JD: So in the UK, anyway, every weekend you'll see people out sharing a beer for some sort of occasion. JD: And I'm a big believer in not just occasional drinking, but drinking for occasion. JD: And that doesn't mean like a birthday celebration or particular season, but the occasion might just be catching up with a friend. JD: That's the occasion. JD: And so we're going to share a beer and there's kind of a bonding thing that happens with that. JD: So I guess I'm just trying to say that I've got lots of really fond memories of doing things like that with beer when I was younger. Rob (Host): And then I guess you started off home brewing. Rob (Host): How long were you home brewing before you were knocking at the door of brewers and asking to help? JD: I think there was probably maybe a five year period where I was homebrewing. JD: I mean, I'll come out and say it straight away. JD: My first homebrews were awful. JD: I just didn't know enough. JD: I was too excited to get started and didn't really have the kind of the knowledge that I needed. JD: And I started with the most basic kits and stuff. JD: These days I have to take my hat off to some of the home brewers that I know who go straight in and come out with a bang and go like, tada. JD: Lovely, unoxidized, hazy ipa. JD: And I go, wow, the laws of. Rob (Host): Probabilities mean that has to happen sometime, I guess. JD: Yeah, it's happening more and more. Rob (Host): A lot stacked against you, isn't it? Rob (Host): I guess when you're doing that, especially at homebrew level, where, yes, you can make beer, but it will carry with it potential for off flavors. JD: Ultimately, I just didn't really fully understand the basic principles of making beer. JD: When I first had a go at doing it, I brewed a batch of what I called, rather a bit of an assumption, really. JD: I called it awesome ale. JD: That was just the name of the beer. Rob (Host): Aim high. JD: Yeah, well, yeah, in the end, it ended up being like an ironic name like little John, because my dad said, well, he's got a bad experience of home brewing when he was a kid, so he doesn't want it in the kitchen because it will just explode everywhere. JD: And I was like, well, okay, if you say so. JD: So it's going out in the garage in the winter. JD: Too cold to ferment on ale yeast. JD: I now know all of this now. JD: No activity in the airlock, no measurable change in the hydrometer. JD: And I thought, well, but it's been two weeks. JD: Well, you got to. JD: Got to bottle it, right? Rob (Host): Yeah. JD: Thank God it was plastic bottles. JD: Yeah. JD: So I had a few bottle bombs and ended up kind of, well, plastic ones anyway. JD: Ended up venting those and I forgot about a few in the garage and came back to them like three or four months later after I'd left the caps off slightly. JD: And they'd basically done their primary fermentation in. JD: In the bottle on lots of different occasions. JD: And one or two of them were, like, palatable with a really thick yeast cake at the bottom of each bottle. Rob (Host): Very gentle pour on those. Rob (Host): Or not if you don't. JD: Exactly. JD: This actually looks so clear. JD: Yeah, I only did that with one. JD: I then went to university in reading, which is kind of leads on to why I'm here still in reading now. JD: And I was studying to be a primary school teacher with an arts specialism. JD: So half of my degree was in the studio and half of it was doing placements at four different primary schools. JD: The idea being is that rather than a PGCE, where you do a degree and then decide, I want to do the kind of add on that makes me a teacher. JD: Your degree is actually focused on primary teaching from the very beginning. JD: So, sadly, that degree course doesn't exist anymore. JD: We would be a ed students, so we would arrive on the scene as specialists in our subject with four years of good knowledge, learning everything from learning disabilities to how to support gifted children and things like, you know, I got to the end of my degree and during my spare time, I had been working part time behind the bar at the Ale house in Reading. JD: And then I was the salar manager at the castle tap for a little while after that, I got involved in reading beer festival. JD: I ended up running the university's real ale society and changing that from a group that only had about five or six members, only just enough to be technically called a society. JD: And when I left, we had more than 50 and attracted lots of international students who would come and want to know about british beer, because if you come from a place where it's only lager, all of the cask taps and things like that were really interesting to. JD: Yeah, I look back on it now and go like, well, it was called the real ale society, but realistically, we were kind of the home brewing and pub appreciation society. JD: We weren't necessarily all ale drinkers, because some of them were interested in how to make lager. JD: So in a way, I look back and go, I wish we'd have changed the name, but it was quite heavily associated with camera back then, and I don't think they would like that. JD: Certainly not call it the craft beer society. JD: They wouldn't have been interested. JD: So I finished my degree, and I think sometime in the last year of that degree, I decided that actually, back then, I think I still had more to be excited about and more to learn about other things, and wasn't ready to start teaching other people other things long term as a career, and go, right, that's it. JD: Not to say you can't learn more stuff as a teacher, but it's a busy job and it will take up a lot of your life. JD: My wife knows that. JD: She did do exactly that, and I met her on that course, and she's still a teacher now. JD: She doesn't have a lot of time for hobies and interests, and I'm always a big hobies and interests guy, so. Rob (Host): You'Re probably making up for two there. JD: Yeah, definitely. JD: Like I said, this terrible affliction where I'm interested in too many things. JD: So I said to her that once we graduated, I would like to have a go at becoming a brewer. JD: At the time, I just couldn't imagine something more exciting. JD: You wake up and go, I can't believe I'm being paid to do this. Rob (Host): Yeah. JD: But without industry experience beyond working in pubs and bars, you kind of had to prove yourself in another way. JD: And that was with beer knowledge, personal skills, those sorts of things. JD: And when you do work behind the bar, you have the opportunity to meet a lot of brewers, especially a place like the ale house, where they are interested in coming in and sharing a beer with you, those sorts of things. JD: So I met Chris Bingham through that and applied for a job there and just said, I mean, I actually applied for a job at all sorts of different brewers. JD: I applied for a job at siren at the same time. JD: I applied for a job at wild weather at the same time. JD: And Bingham's was just the first one that got back to me and said, actually, we have an assistant brewers position coming up. JD: It doesn't pay much, but we've got somebody moving on and you can take their role. JD: And I was like, yep, I know, great. JD: I think at this point, I'm only just moving in with my now wife. JD: Rent back then was not what it is these days, so I could afford to become a brewer while she laboured away in the classroom. JD: Yeah, what great fun those first few years. JD: Really cool. Rob (Host): And that was at Bingham's. Rob (Host): That was near. JD: That's right, yeah, I was really fortunate to sort of land there. JD: And a few months later, the brewery won champion beer of Britain for its vanilla stout. JD: I can't take any credit for that myself. JD: I had a hand in the care of that beer, of those recipes, but this is all the previous team's work and I kind of joined on at the right time for that. JD: But, yeah, we really saw us kind of being catapulted to only making vanilla stout for six months of the year, which is great fun. Rob (Host): The curse of success. JD: It was a great beer, really was a great beer. JD: And I'm still good friends with everybody that I worked with there. JD: The team at the time was John Wellat, who now is the head brewer at disruption, and Ian Morris, who's the head brewer, electric bear now. JD: So at one stage, all three of us were head brewers and Chris decided to take a step out of the industry for his own reasons and now is more of a professional appreciator of beer, I think. JD: Fair enough. Rob (Host): You definitely. Rob (Host): There's lots to appreciate, isn't there? Rob (Host): Yeah, we can agree on that one, yeah. JD: But big thanks to all those guys because they were my leg up, they were my in. Rob (Host): So, with a few homebrews beneath your belt and I guess immersing yourself in beer culture, pubs, sellers and all that sort of stuff, what kind of things were you having to pick up as an assistant brewer? JD: I mean, it's everything from packaging. JD: So Bingham's was 100% cask and the occasional bottle, although we did contract bottle. JD: It's kind of cask washing, cleaning, all of the really important jobs that are the less glamorous ones, those are the ones that you start out with. JD: But, yeah, you soon show an interest for the recipe development side of things and for the actual beer production side of things as well. JD: And so in the end, you're running the brew kit on your own when needed to. JD: So you ended up in a small team where you've only got three or four people. JD: You do have to do everything except for deliveries, in my case, anyway. JD: Yeah, that's what I was doing there. JD: Oh, brewery tours as well. JD: Yeah, some of my favourite things to do. Rob (Host): Yeah, I went on a Bingham's brewery tour, I think, once. Rob (Host): And get your jug of beer and all that sort of. Rob (Host): Yeah, really good. JD: Yeah, that is a really nice one. JD: The Bingham's brewery tour was nice and simple as well. JD: You just walked in, sat at the brew kit, and sort of had a conversation with whoever was doing the tour while one of the other assistants came out and just kept filling your glass up. Rob (Host): What's not to like? Rob (Host): I remember sitting there, and again, that was probably quite early on in my beer journey, and probably for the first time, being able to see end to end, like what a brew kit looks like, and being able to appreciate it, right? Rob (Host): It goes in here, it goes here, goes here. Rob (Host): And understanding that process, whereas before, you might have looked at a big brewery and gone, shrug at that, or it's sort of too small, but it was like a really good size. Rob (Host): To understand all of that, that size. JD: Of brewery makes you realize the step from home brewing to production brewing. JD: You're always looking for three pots. JD: This is what I used to say on tours, look for three pots. JD: One pot's got hot water in it. JD: One pot, you put the grain in with the hot water. JD: The other pot, it gets boiled. JD: Then there's other vessels for maturation and fermentation and things like that. JD: But those three pots are in all breweries. JD: Sometimes they're upstairs with one pot upstairs, one pot in the middle, and one pot in the basement. JD: They're really cool breweries, if you get to see those. JD: And then in the case of places like siren, all of the pots are on a deck where you've got to climb up and stand on a gantry to look into them. JD: And even in some even bigger breweries, you've got some pots which are in a whole different room, but there's still three pots. JD: Well, it's fullers, and their pots are kind of sunk into the fabric of the building, so you can only see the top of the pot. JD: But then you look in and go, h***, that's deep. Rob (Host): That's it. Rob (Host): And you get breweries like that where they've got like a command center you run the brew day from. Rob (Host): You're not sort of where literally digging out the stuff, are you? Rob (Host): And all that. Rob (Host): So it depends how hands on you are for particular brewery. Rob (Host): Yeah, I guess that's all the thing that brings your differences and nuances to your kit and your brew day as well, of how that works. Rob (Host): So how long were you at Bingham's for before you moved on? JD: I think it was just less than two years. JD: And that came as I've always enjoyed making new recipes. JD: That's what I was doing as a home brewer. JD: I wasn't necessarily refining and repeating the same thing over and over again. JD: And that's fair enough for some people. JD: That's just not what I was doing at the time. JD: I have always enjoyed experimenting with different flavors and ingredients and making beers that people will pick one up and go like, oh, wow, that's crazy. JD: This is great. JD: How have you done this, like, magic trick beer? JD: So white stout was always, like, a fun personal favorite of mine to brew at home, because the whole idea that you could shut your eyes and smell coffee and chocolate put the beer to your lips and it's kind of creamy and full bodied. JD: You open your eyes and you go, ta da. JD: It's pale. JD: Yeah, exactly. JD: And I don't know, it's just like a silly gag, but I like it because Bingham's was a traditional brewery that made, like, a pale bitter, a traditional bitter, an IPA, and variations on a theme for stout. JD: Although they did do, like, monthly specials, these were once again traditional styles. JD: You'd do like a smoked porter or a winter warmer, those sorts of things. JD: And there wasn't really room in the repertoire from a business standpoint to do heavily dry hopped beers. JD: We didn't have the equipment to do that, and also the business wouldn't have been right for that either. JD: So over the time I was there, just sort of gradually got to the stage where I felt like I wanted to do more experimental things, and Bingham's, through no fault of their own, wasn't the right place for that. JD: And so I ended up talking to siren again, and wild weather again, and a few other breweries as well, that I knew were making experimental beers, and the most experimental of them all got back to me and said, yeah, all right, we'll take you on. JD: We have an assistant brewers role coming up. JD: Let's do that. JD: So I ended up feet on the ground at wild weather, which back then was known locally as probably one of the most goofy, wacky breweries for the sorts of styles they kicked out. JD: They had, like, a chocolate milk stout in their core range at the time. Rob (Host): I guess when you think back to, like, now, that's quite commonplace. Rob (Host): A brewery might have that, but back then, there weren't many places doing that. Rob (Host): I think we were starting to get the start of the UK craft beer scene and hoppy beers and all of that, but not quite. Rob (Host): Maybe the full range of pastry stouts and that kind of thing. JD: Yeah, they were definitely ahead of their time with Ian Clark there, pushing the kind of crazier side of things. JD: They had a very individual, unique kind of character to them, and from the guys that I'd met who already worked there, they seemed like the right fit for me as well. JD: But, yeah, back then, when Mike Tempest was running the place, he always liked to start early and finish early. JD: And so my first brew day, I was there at like 05:30 a.m. JD: But like, excited, enthusiastic. JD: Yeah. JD: Got up at four in the morning. Rob (Host): Like, let's go, it's always good. JD: Yeah. Rob (Host): So what was a typical day like, wild weather? JD: Well, when I first started, it was not too different from the sort of operations you were doing at Bingham's brewery, but we had collaborations coming in, stuff like that. JD: I think day one, we had a collab with weird beard, and that was my first opportunity to kind of meet another brewer from another brewery and make beer together, which was cool. JD: Then even the first week we had yeasty boys in for a collab as well. JD: And I still talk to all of these people now. JD: It just shows that making beer with other people is a real bonding experience, because you tend to go out for a pint and some food afterwards and chat to each other. JD: You talk exactly as we're talking now, except they've got their own beer story as well. Rob (Host): Definitely has echoes of your first experiences with home brewing and brewing together with your friends, but now you're doing it at a brewery level. JD: Yeah. JD: So I think I was there for six years on the dot and three years, just less than three years as assistant brewer and just more than three years as the head brewer there and my role there, I started to take on a lot of the operations stuff as well, and things like the staffing, but there was recipe design, it was doing meet the brewers, it was doing a lot of production, it was doing a lot of training as well, of new staff and trying to be that leg up for them that people like Johnny and Chris were for me. JD: And thankfully, a good number of them are still in the industry, even though wild weather's not there, sadly, anymore. JD: Yeah, I just kind of wanted to pay that forwards, but it was a busy, really, really busy, really exciting place to work when we were in our heyday there. JD: Yeah. Rob (Host): What were your kind of favourite brews that you made at Wildweather? Rob (Host): There must be a few there. JD: Wild weather definitely had its own character and vibe, and my favorite brews are the ones where you see people smirking when they're talking about them either, because they, for their time, were like, really strong but very palatable. JD: So that when I first joined, they already had this recipe in the bank. JD: But like things like skidouche, which was an 11% tipper before anybody else was knocking on the door of 8% in the local area. JD: But it was so sneaky and drinkable that people would get skedooshed. JD: They would have a can and go like, that was nice. JD: I might start on another one and they'd get a few sips in and they'd be like, laying on the floor. Rob (Host): Trying to stand up. JD: Yeah. JD: And obviously, I'm not advocating irresponsible drinking, but that was just a one funny aspect of things. JD: But, yeah, wherever there was a smirk to be seen about a recipe, whether that was. JD: We did a cockle and seaweed stout once was a really hard sell, the slowest moving beer for the sales team that we'd ever produced. JD: But by God, it was delicious. JD: Yeah, there was this. JD: I mean, you take, imagine a bit like an oyster stout, but with a bit more kind of a briny, kind of chocolatey, full bodied vibe. JD: It was really nice. JD: We even had, like, fans of wild weather who were buying cases of it to turn it into gravy for pies. Rob (Host): Oh, really? JD: Yeah, it worked. JD: So, I mean, we brewed a beer. JD: I mean, probably the most infamous beer that I had a kind of direct hand in making. JD: There was what was called John Peele when it first came out, which was a banana milkshake IPA. JD: It was basically ignoring the style guideline for milkshake IPA, which should be kind know, hop focused and pushing the kind of tropical, ripe mango vibes, and then taking the word milkshake far too literally and going like, I remember milkshakes from when I was a kid. JD: You know, the banana milkshake ipas, like yazoo and stuff like that. Rob (Host): Yeah, let's make one of those banana foam type flavors. JD: Yeah, that's it. JD: Like foam, banana flavors and lots of real banana. JD: So that one, I just wanted to hit the two groups of people who know about banana milkshake, which is your sort of yazoo drinker, but also your. JD: I want to use ice cream and real vanilla and real banana in it. JD: Kind of the american diner banana milkshake style. JD: And then make sure that both those groups of people were happy with the one beer. JD: So you used elements of both. JD: So there was like the iso molassetate type banana milkshake flavouring in that beer, as well as lots of natural banana for full body and stuff, like. JD: Yeah, we used to use our next door neighbour at wild weather, who was a metal worker, an old metal worker called Jeff, as a bit of a sounding board and tasting panel. JD: Yeah. JD: But he just likes kind of normal beer and guinness and stuff like that. JD: So we always used to bring over the most experimental beers for him to try. JD: And we knew we'd got it right when we invited him to take a sample of John Peele out of the tank, and it came out luminous yellow with a head on the top of it that looked like whipped cream. JD: And he just took a sip of it and just went, it's a bit thick. JD: I looked at Ian and we're like, that's it. JD: If Jeff thinks it's a bit thick, then it's perfect. Rob (Host): We've hit the mark here. Rob (Host): Yeah, excellent. JD: Yeah, I had a great time working there. JD: That's good. Rob (Host): It sounds like wild weather would have scratched that itch for having many. JD: Yeah, yeah. JD: I mean, underneath all the silliness, you have to bear in mind that if you're the head brewer there, you have to make it work. JD: At the same time, you can't pull off a beer like that without having really meticulously studied exactly how you might do it. JD: And lots of people used to ask me, oh, do you brew pilot batches? JD: Believe me, if I'd had a pilot kit there, I would have used it. JD: We just didn't have one. JD: This is the pilot batch. JD: Yeah. JD: I just had to be super confident that the information I had gained in figuring out the nuts and bolts of that recipe was going to work. JD: And more often than not, they were built off previous recipes, so you weren't going in, like, completely blind. JD: That is one of the misconceptions, I think, when people imagine brewing experimental beer, they imagine that you're starting completely blind. JD: But if you've baked a cake before and you're going to make a different flavored cake this time they're all cakes. JD: You know the basics of making cakes. JD: If you don't make the cake that you were intending, fair enough. JD: It will still be cake. JD: It will probably still be nice, because you know what makes it not nice? JD: And barring anything unexpected happening, you'll always end up with a nice beer at the end of it. JD: People often said, like, oh, did you intend for it to turn out this way? JD: Occasionally the answer was no. JD: But it's really nice, though, isn't it? JD: We've just changed the marketing around. Rob (Host): It has to be flexible on those ones. Rob (Host): Our homebrew club is a phrase about, it'll still be beer. Rob (Host): It might not be as intended, but you'll still have beer at the end that you can drink and enjoy. JD: Yeah. JD: I used to say, it's still a data point. Rob (Host): That's it. Rob (Host): You'll learn from that, and you'll go on and iterate if you've pushed the. JD: Envelope out so far, it's out the window, then you have a very wide net of data points to pull different silly things from. JD: Exactly, yeah. Rob (Host): And so you're six years at wild weather and then unfortunately wild weather closed down from its location and then you moved to Siren. Rob (Host): So you'd been in touch with them before, of course, about them. Rob (Host): But can you tell us a little bit about your time at Siren and how you got started there? JD: Yeah, I mean, Siren's an interesting story because they have been going for as long as wild weather had been going, really, at the time. JD: And I remember drinking my first siren beers at Redding beer festival. JD: When they came out with, I think it was soundwave and undercurrent they had on cask there, stillished up in Redding beer festival. JD: And they blew me away. JD: They were so hoppy compared to everything else there. JD: And they were absolutely different from all of the other range. JD: And I thought, wow, this is a brewery to watch at that time. JD: And I've been watching them ever since. JD: Even from wild weather. JD: I've been watching what siren do. JD: I've bought their beers. JD: I've been excited about their releases. JD: I've stayed across their social media, attended a couple of their events just as a know. JD: And through doing that occasionally, I've ended up meeting some of the people who work there. JD: And there was one, I think we did a joint tap takeover at the rake in London and Sean Knight happened to be there, the now head brewer at Siren, I think shortly after he'd just joined. JD: And we ended up sharing a beer and having a chat and things like that. JD: And I didn't realize how significant that would be because I hadn't forgotten about it. JD: I just didn't realize the importance to him because he got an idea of who I was. JD: He told me that there wasn't an option to come into the brew team at the moment. JD: But if I wanted a job at Siren, there's this canning line operator job that he's been struggling to fill. JD: And I kind of scratched my head about that because although we did do canning at wild weather, the machine was a lot smaller, a lot more manual. JD: And because I was doing the head brewer role and a bit of ops, the canning side of thing had been a bit delegated out to other members of the team. JD: So I wasn't really in charge of that. JD: Although I operated the machine, I wasn't setting the seams or doing any repair work on it in the way that we are now. JD: So, like I said, interested in lots of things. JD: And there are very few things that I'm not interested in. JD: I just thought to myself, I've got a big opportunity here, really, to learn a lot very quickly about how big production canning works. JD: And there's interest to be found in that because it's an incredible machine to behold once it's really going. JD: It's churning out 6000 cans an hour. JD: When we're on, it's just a blur. JD: A big rotating manifold. JD: It's kind of a Goliath machine. Rob (Host): I always find those mesmerizing. JD: Very satisfying about watching the line running. JD: Well, I just wish that it was without my input. Rob (Host): But they're so complicated, aren't they? Rob (Host): And there's so many things happening. Rob (Host): So I guess you had to learn all about that and how they work and how to troubleshoot it and that sort of thing. JD: Yeah, I was transparent with Sean. JD: I basically told him that I would put my best foot forward. JD: He was quite keen in having somebody with a lot of brewing background in that role. JD: Because things like oxidation is a big deal. JD: It's important to get right. JD: And if you come from a brewing background, then you have an appreciation for the product that's in the can. JD: I think you do get a lot of people that apply for kind of canning roles who come not from brewing, but from other canning positions. JD: So whether they're doing like, beans or sodas or. JD: It doesn't matter, the machines are quite similar. JD: So having that head on my shoulders, I was, I think, just able to even do kind of sensory check the beer in a way that your usual canning person wouldn't. JD: So, not that I find any off flavors in them, but I could. JD: I could do that. Rob (Host): And I think early detection of anything like that is going to save so much time, money, beer, all those sorts of things. Rob (Host): If you can do that. JD: Yeah, definitely. JD: It's strange. JD: There was so much to learn so quickly that I just had to jump in with both feet. JD: I dug out the manuals for all of the machines we had in that room. JD: And I took them home for, like, bedtime reading. Rob (Host): Oh, wow. Rob (Host): Yeah. JD: And my colleague at the time, David, was like, yeah, that's very impressive, but what are you doing? JD: Like, taking the manuals home, man. JD: Get life. JD: Yeah. JD: But ultimately, then you'd come in the following week, and in any downtime, I would walk around the machines with the manuals open and sort of compare the technical drawings and go like, oh, that's what that is. JD: That's what that does. JD: It's helped massively when it comes to troubleshooting so if ever you're working on new machinery, I hate to feel ignorant about it. JD: I hate to just kind of watch it run. JD: And when something doesn't go right, call someone else. JD: Although that is what you do have to do when you're dealing with expensive machinery. JD: You can't just jump in and go, I know how to fix this, but. Rob (Host): At least you might know where to start. JD: I guess you might even say, I've seen something that doesn't look right because it didn't look right. JD: It didn't look like this yesterday and I know what that bit is. JD: So even just to have some verbal input and say, how about checking this? JD: Or have we looked at that? JD: Is a useful thing and we're sort of nine months into that journey, canning at siren now and I feel really kind of comfortable. JD: I wish I could say that I'd seen every problem that there can be and yet I was just showing our new lead brewer, the boxmaker machine the other day and first box came through some problem with the machine. JD: I was like, I've never seen that before. Rob (Host): This never happens to me. JD: But he saw me troubleshoot it and he goes, oh, so that's how you troubleshoot. JD: And it turned out not to be what I thought it was and not to be not. JD: It wasn't even anything that had happened in the last year. Rob (Host): But I guess you've then had the opportunity to brew as well at Siren. JD: Yeah, so far I haven't led a brew myself because the kit is really different to the stuff I've worked with before. JD: The concepts and all of the knowledge I have in my head is still there, but the actual procedural knowledge is what I don't yet have. JD: You could say like, oh, I've driven vehicles before, but it doesn't necessarily mean you would be really good at driving a lorry. JD: It's a bit like that. JD: But because the team at Siren know what my background is, I am being brought into recipe development conversations and not just brought in, but encouraged to say, look, if you've got an idea, share it with us. JD: If you see something that you think we could change with our procedure, share it with us, justify it, explain your thoughts, we want to hear from you. JD: So it's a really encouraging. Rob (Host): Yeah, it's really refreshing to hear. JD: And I know Sean is working really hard to instill that in people, to make it easier for people to put ideas forwards. JD: And so I thought, okay, I'll throw a few ideas into the wind and just email him a few concepts that I had going around my head because they don't stop. JD: Even when you're not production brewing, you still wake up in the night and go smoke pork. Rob (Host): I hope you're enjoying our chat, and if you like what you're hearing, there are a few things you can do that will really help us out and help other people find the podcast. Rob (Host): Number one, follow or subscribe to we are beer people podcast wherever you get your podcasts and leave a review or rating. Rob (Host): Number two, share the episode on your socials or even in actual real life. Rob (Host): And if you want to stay up to date with all things we are beer people. Rob (Host): You can visit our website, which is Wearebeerpeople Co. Rob (Host): UK, where you can sign up for a monthly newsletter and you can follow us on social media at wearebeerpeople. Rob (Host): All one word and if you have any questions or comments or want to. JD: Hear from any particular beer people, send. Rob (Host): Me a message via the website or on social media. Rob (Host): Now back to the podcast. JD: The smoke, porter, fire and stars is the beer that I can say, kind of that I have led. JD: I wrote the grist for it. JD: Sean put the nuts and bolts together in terms of how it would work through our system. JD: And I also smoked a portion, not a massive portion, but a portion of our own malt over the used caribbean chocolate cake spirals. Rob (Host): Very nice. Rob (Host): Yeah. JD: Honestly, I smoked myself as much as I smoked that because I was doing it in a tower smoker and in batches. JD: I was out there for best part of nine. JD: Had my pillow that I sleep on at home, still smelt of smoke after I'd gone for three showers. JD: And it was everywhere, like in my beard that I had at the time. JD: I warned Emily, I said, I'm quite smoky, and my car is going to be quite smoky for a little while after that. JD: And I think even she was surprised at how smoky I was. JD: I walked into the tap yard at lunchtime, midway through the smoking session. JD: I was stood at the bar for less than 30 seconds before somebody went, is something on fire? JD: I was like, it's me. JD: It's me. JD: Yeah, that was a good one. JD: The interesting thing about firing stars is that in a brewery like siren, where you've got a schedule to keep to and vacancies within it for specials, the sales team also have an idea of what kinds of beers they want to sell. JD: It's not quite the same where whether you could just 100% invent it yourself and then present that to the sales team and say, this is what we have going on in our minds. JD: I had originally suggested to Sean, a much bigger beer, imperial strength with other elements in it, one of which was smoke. JD: And he said, well, I really like that. JD: Let's kind of put a pin in that. JD: We do have an opening in our kind of special schedule for something a bit like that, but it's got to be a bit weaker and let's strim it down to. JD: So we're just working with smoke. JD: So smoke Porter, like, take that away and rework it. JD: I was like, okay, I like this. JD: This is how a big brewery works. JD: You can't just be silly all the time. JD: You have to. Rob (Host): Nice bit of direction as well there to go with that. Rob (Host): And I guess being aware of that pipeline that you need to fill, that customers want and all of that, and your involvement in that. JD: Yeah. JD: So this is where I think, for me, my brewing journey. JD: I wouldn't like to say I'm losing my silly side, but it's maturing. JD: It's maturing. JD: And I'm really getting to grips with how a brewery of that caliber puts out such good beer all the time. Rob (Host): I want to talk about hats, if you don't mind. Rob (Host): But in your roles, if you look back at Bingham's wild weather and siren, how would you describe that? Rob (Host): Because I guess you might have had different hats at wild weather and different hats at siren. JD: Yeah, wild weather with a small team, obviously, I was wearing the brewing hat a lot, but you also wear the public hat a lot because you don't have an events team, which we do at siren. JD: So in a sense, you're the customer facing side. JD: You are a bit of the sales side, because people walk in and want to buy beer and they kind of don't care if you're busy. JD: You also don't want to make them feel like they can't be served because you're busy. JD: So there are definitely times where we've gone home late because somebody has come in and said, yeah, can I get, like, ten liters of beer? JD: Yeah. JD: All right. JD: You put on that smile and go, yeah, of course you can, mate. JD: Definitely. JD: So, wild weather, I was constantly changing hats, and because they were constantly changing, they were quite shallow hats, berets, if you will, fashionable. JD: Sometimes. JD: I didn't really have the big mustache to go with the beret. Rob (Host): No. JD: That was a Mythbusters joke, not a slight on french people. JD: And at siren, I'm far more often wearing the canning hat. JD: I am sometimes wearing the recipe development hat, which is nice, but that's a very small hat. JD: Like, I don't know what's a small hat. JD: A fascinator, maybe. JD: Nice little. Rob (Host): Yeah, nice little clip on thing. JD: Yeah, exactly. Rob (Host): One of those tennis visors or something like that. JD: Or creepiers. Rob (Host): And then a bit of a top hat for canning. JD: Yeah, that's the deepest hat of them all. JD: So my job is a bit more specific at the moment. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): Yeah, I'm getting victorian images in my head at this point. JD: That's a very traditional career. JD: That's another thing that's always attracted me to brewing is that especially in this day and age where you've got so much work from home. JD: I mean, that wasn't the case when I first started, but it definitely is now. JD: Lots of people who work in nondescript it who don't particularly want to talk about their jobs because they themselves find them not exciting. JD: I've always liked the idea of having your hands in know and doing something which has been done in the UK for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, has always been brewers. JD: Is it a bit like how I'd imagine a carpenter? JD: Yeah, except you can't then drink the chair they've made. Rob (Host): That's disappointing. Rob (Host): But you can enjoy a nice sit down after a long day. Rob (Host): I often sometimes think about that when I'm looking at like walls and bricks and things like that. Rob (Host): You think at some point someone or a group of people have built that, created that. Rob (Host): They've literally had their hands on that. Rob (Host): And I don't know what was that person doing at the time. JD: Those are exactly the kind of questions I ask myself about all sorts of things like that. JD: My wife is forever rolling her eyes at me because if ever we're sat somewhere for more than a minute, I'm looking around at the brickwork and going like, this building wasn't originally this high. JD: Look, there's a different line of bricks. JD: Hang on. JD: And what was that there? JD: Look. JD: Why have they bricked up that? JD: And why is there a doorway up there? JD: And then you start looking at the floor and going like, well, it's either been paved. JD: Oh, look. JD: No, hang on, look, there's a post. Rob (Host): You're like pulling back. Rob (Host): The curtain asks you to pull back. JD: Too many years of watching time team when I was a kid. Rob (Host): That's it. JD: Yeah. Rob (Host): Don't look in there. Rob (Host): You mentioned your wife, but how have you balanced kind of family life with brewing at the different stages you've gone through? JD: Becoming an adult has been really difficult for me because now we have a child as well. JD: I never really appreciated the drain on my spare time. JD: It would. JD: And I've always been the kind of person that uses up all of their spare time for all manner of hobbies and interests. JD: And to be honest, if you're going to work hard at work and be a good husband and a good dad, your hobies and interests, they just have to take a backseat for a little while. JD: So I don't play as much music as I wish that I could. JD: I don't do as much fitness and exercise stuff as I wish I could, but my job is a priority of mine and my family are the top priority, so I don't feel like I'm being shortchanged, you know, Robin's as rewarding as he is a pain, depending on. Rob (Host): The day he gives and he takes. JD: He does give and take, yeah. JD: So it's coming to terms with being an adult. JD: I don't know if I'll ever fully come to terms. JD: I kind of looking forward to retirement so I can pick back all my hobbies and interests again. Rob (Host): Looking to the future. JD: Yeah. Rob (Host): I don't know. Rob (Host): I don't speak to anyone who think feels like they're an adult yet, or. JD: We'Re all just older. Rob (Host): Children just get older and creakier, I think, as we go. JD: Oh, definitely creakier now. JD: Yeah. Rob (Host): And that is the chairs creaking in the background, not us, I think, at the moment, or at least not yet. Rob (Host): Anyway. Rob (Host): You mentioned you sort of started off training as a teacher as well when you got into that. Rob (Host): Do you think any of those skills and experiences have helped you on your journey? JD: Definitely. JD: And I even felt like it was helping me while I was behind the bar at the ale house and the castle tap. JD: And to an extent, reading beer festival. Rob (Host): Is this whilst you're still disciplining all the people? JD: No. JD: You know what? JD: You have to be a hard line with some people, but telling somebody off in the pub and getting them to leave isn't always the right thing to do because they're probably never going to come back and they might be embarrassed or whatever. JD: It's a hard line to tread. JD: But you are forced into, effectively, a full time public speaking engagement when you're training as a teacher, because not only do you have to present to your class while you're doing classwork, you have to present to your tutors and you have to present to your peers as well. JD: You are always up in the art studio side of things. JD: You're always presenting for your group criticals. JD: If you can't talk about your work, you can't just leave it up to other people's interpretation. JD: They have to know what the thought of the artist was behind those different things. JD: So I wasn't always a big public speaker type of person until I went to university and did those things. JD: And in my personality behind the bar, I see myself especially somewhere. JD: I mean, I actually did. JD: And it reminded me of this the other day. JD: I did a guest shift back at the ale house just last weekend. JD: I'd forgotten how much I loved it because my favorite type of customer to interact with is somebody who's never been in before, who sees too many beers, wants to have a nice beer and wants to have a nice time, but doesn't quite know how and can be intimidated by a big list. JD: So you disarm them and just go like, hey, I see you're looking a little bit confused. JD: I'm here to help. JD: I've tasted these beers at the start of my shift. JD: What sort of thing are you looking for? JD: Pale or dark? JD: And then you start being more specific from that kind of thing. JD: So you're almost giving that kind of customer the pastoral care, making them relax. JD: And they've come into your pub because they want to have a relaxing drink or something like that, and you're facilitating that they will be better off for your advice on it, and they may even decide to have something on your recommendation that they would not have gone for. JD: And you broaden their horizons and then they come back and say, I really enjoyed interacting with that member of the bar staff there. JD: So that's definitely one of my favorite things to do and definitely a benefit of gaining that public speaking side and that trying to understand the other person. JD: Because kids misbehave a lot, but they're misbehaving because they think they're doing the thing that either they want to do or they think they're doing the right thing and seeing why they're doing certain things and coming to them from their perspective. JD: You can do it with adults too, because ultimately, when you're at five to eleven and everybody's had five or six pints, it's a little bit like managing a class of children. JD: Yeah, maybe that's why people do it. Rob (Host): Could you tell us some of your all time favorite beers? JD: Yeah, so this year we had a beer by hop butcher called extra green neon Relish, which I love the name of. JD: Yeah, well, yeah, it was in a big green can with a cartoon can of pickles on the tick. JD: Yeah. JD: And yeah, hop butcher, they're a brewery in Chicago, so it is really difficult to get hold of their beer in the UK as fresh as we had it. JD: And it was jackpot, complete potluck. JD: We went into a bottle shop in Bristol and picked one up, and you never really know with american beers how well they've traveled over here, because I've been let down a couple of times when we've had imported beers that have been stored warm, even for a short period, and they kind of lose their shine. JD: You could have cracked that beer in the kitchen downstairs, and I'd have smelt it in the attic instant. JD: Like it just filled up one of those huge hopperoma kind of. JD: It was an 11% citron sabro triple ipa, and it just came out. JD: I mean, I've worked with cans now for long enough that I feel like I can sort of even see oxygen, because even that tiny little tinge of gray or brown, you're like, okay, that's probably 10, 15, 20 ppb got in there at some point to ensure your eyes seen, and it was just looked like custard. JD: And I loved it. JD: It had such a powerful kind of aroma presence that even while it was in your mouth, before you'd swallowed, it was coming out of your nose and your ears and your eyes. JD: You know what I mean? Rob (Host): Like a vix or something. JD: Yeah. JD: For some people, that experience is probably too intense, but I'm a bit of a sensation seeker myself, and this is kind of why I followed the craft beer line more so than the traditional beer line, because I don't know whether you start to lose your sense of sensation seeking when you're making the same product over and again. JD: It's a different kind of pride. JD: You listen to podcasts where you're talking to Pilsner, Erkel and Budvar and stuff like that, and they really take pride on the fact that their recipe hasn't changed and is the same, and they get such a kick out of that. JD: For me, I'm always looking for something to kind of latch onto next. Rob (Host): See where you can go with. JD: Yeah. JD: For moving things along or changing them around or making. JD: That's why artists are still making new songs now, rather than all folding up their computers and going, there's enough good songs out there. Rob (Host): There's already the same notes, the same chord. JD: Yeah, everything. JD: Yeah. JD: And there's still new things to be done with music, too. JD: But, yeah, this particular beer really stood out to me. JD: It quite literally blew my head off, and it was so pungent that even after you'd finished it, I didn't want to eat anything because I was still sort of. JD: The inside of my head was saturated with citra and sabro. JD: And I was just there breathing in and out of my nose, like, hyperventilating. JD: Well, trying to breathe slowly as well, so I didn't waste it. Rob (Host): That's really nice. JD: Yeah. JD: So every now and then you'll get a beer that blows your pants off like that. JD: And then things like this year's maiden from Siren. JD: I had more of a hand in the barrel blending of that. JD: It was in my first week of working there. JD: And suddenly you've got your own kind of. JD: I've seen behind the scenes. JD: And then when you get to drink the final product, you have far more of excitement about it and an appreciation for it because ultimately, some of the decisions we made in blending came out of some of the things I'd put forward, which was nice. JD: So I sat there going like, yeah, I can taste that barrel that went in there. JD: I can taste that little percent of something that on its own was not very palatable, but really together balanced it out. JD: Yeah. JD: So I really enjoyed that beer slowly and sort of felt every part of the development that I was able to take part in. Rob (Host): Brilliant. Rob (Host): And what's the perfect place for you to enjoy a beer, would you say? JD: I mean, I enjoy beer with friends first and foremost. JD: That's what it's for. JD: But for me personally, and this isn't true for a lot of people, but the perfect place to enjoy a beer is when you pull it through on the tap, either in the cellar or behind the bar before it's gone on, before the public get their lips on it. JD: Because if it's really, really good, you go like, we're about to unleash this and I can't wait to see what the reaction is. JD: There's that little bit of anticipation. JD: You're down in the cellar and you crack, or you crack a can of something after it's had its conditioning time. JD: And you go like, people are going to love this. JD: And I can't wait. JD: I can't wait to make like you're. Rob (Host): In on a secret before everyone else knows and you get to share it with them. JD: Yeah. JD: And when you're having the opportunity to taste beer out of the bright tank once it's carbonated, before it gets canned, and you go like, this is the freshest it can possibly be, obviously, that's great for some styles, not great for other ones that need aging, but even so. JD: Yeah. JD: That little bit of anticipation before it hits the masses. JD: And it's not like I know you said it's like you're in on a secret, but it's the anticipation of making people happy, you go, we've done a good job here, and people are going to be happy when they drink this. Rob (Host): Maybe more like, you've got good news to share. JD: That's exactly it. JD: Yeah, that's exactly it. JD: That sense that when you walk into a room and you do have some really good news, non beer related, you're excited to share it. JD: It's that exact whatever, that feeling where you're kind of fizzing and you go like, guess what, everyone, you've won the lottery or something like that. Rob (Host): What are you most excited about in beer? JD: One of the things I'm excited about the most in beer at the moment is that we're seeing more attention giving to the traditional producers that are still going. JD: So on other podcasts I listen to, I've been listening with intent to the breweries like Schlenkela, smoked beer and Bamberg and stuff, and all of their old timey ways of continuing their tradition. JD: And it's just really nice that we have those things to talk about. JD: Because in a world where you're constantly pushing for the new thing, it's easy to forget the old thing, but the old thing is only still going because it's great, it's really, really good product. Rob (Host): It stood the test of time. JD: That's exactly it. JD: So I like that there's more attention on that sort of thing. JD: The notion of craft beer as it arrived in the UK, I feel like I was kind of of drinking age when people started using the word craft beer. JD: But that came over from America, and in my opinion, it started to mean beers influenced by the american trend of brewing. JD: And there ended up with a bit of a harsh line being drawn between traditional producers in the UK and craft beer producers, to the point where a customer would come in and go, what sort of beer do you make? JD: Is it trad or craft? JD: And I see that line starting to disappear now, because, let's face it, making a really well kept traditional cask ale is, if anything, more of a craft than banging a load of dry hops into a cylindrical, conical tank. JD: Yeah. JD: So the word is expanding. JD: People's appreciation of those styles is expanding and becoming less divisive, which I like. Rob (Host): Have there been any people that you'd say have been particularly instrumental in your. JD: Career, aside from the people who employed me, of which I'm very grateful? JD: I think I've now met so many brewers and producers in the industry that it wouldn't be fair to single out a single person and say, like, you really did it for me. JD: So I guess I would have to go back to my original friendship group that are out there. JD: I mean, some of them work in brewing still, some of them don't. JD: Because without them I wouldn't have had that little spark and wouldn't have had friends to talk to about it. JD: And we wouldn't have spent lots of nights brewing and drinking beer together. JD: So I don't know where I'd be now without that group. Rob (Host): And as we come to the end of the podcast, are there any ways that people can follow you and stay up to date with things? Rob (Host): JD and Siren? JD: Yeah, so you can find us on Instagram at Sirencraft Brew. JD: I'm not sure what the handles are for there. Rob (Host): I can pop those ones in the show notes. Rob (Host): I'll also pop in the details. Rob (Host): This should be coming out in December, so we should have fire and stars. Rob (Host): And I'll pop a link to that if it's hopefully still in stock. JD: Yeah, I mean, I hope so. JD: For my own personal benefit, I'm sure the sales team would say that they want it run out. JD: You can find me personally on instagram at JD Brews and on there. JD: It's just a mix of things that I do. JD: It's not all about brewing. JD: If anything, there's more pictures of me running around pumpkin carving. JD: Recently I did a video. Rob (Host): Yeah, very intricate and detailed. JD: You know, I was saying about going down the rabbit hole and getting interested in something. JD: I carve a pumpkin every year, always have. JD: But you see the really special ones and go like, well, how do they do that then? JD: Oh, a dremel. JD: Right. JD: Okay. JD: Yeah, I stayed up until one in the morning carving pumpkins. JD: I just got fixated on it. JD: Yeah. JD: And it's not just playing wife's like, come to bed. JD: What are you doing? JD: Yeah, well, thankfully the sound of a dremel on like pewter is like a sound of a dentist drill. JD: But on a pumpkin it's quite quiet. JD: It's just spinning away. JD: Churning away at pumpkin flesh. JD: Yeah. JD: Gradually shading through different layers of pumpkin. JD: Yeah, I don't get enough sleep anyway with the little one, but for some stupid reason, I'd still try and reach out and sacrifice it further for the sake of in for a penny, in for a pound. Rob (Host): On your instagram, I also saw a few clips of you with your accordion as well. Rob (Host): So perhaps another hobby that you're sort of going in to learn all about. JD: Yeah, I picked that up when I was lucky enough to inherit one. JD: I think I started playing it when I was about 18. JD: Also, I came from a background of playing piano before that. JD: So I had the piano side of it figured out. JD: You just turn it on its side, but then the buttons and the bellows, they were a new thing. JD: Yeah. JD: I don't have as much opportunity to practice and get better at it than I used to. JD: So every now and then, whenever I have the rare few and far between free day, I spend a couple of hours playing and hopefully, if I can play sort of once a month at home alone, then I can prevent what I have learned from disappearing. JD: I'm in a holding pattern at the moment with the accordion playing. Rob (Host): Now, I did ask JD to bring his accordion with him to the pub, as you do, so stay tuned to hear him play. Rob (Host): And right now, let's talk about Spruce. Rob (Host): Can you tell us about spruce trees and how you got into brewing with those? JD: Yeah. JD: So always in the pursuit of a different ingredient, something that somebody wasn't using. JD: I used to leaf through the back pages of some of the, like lots of homebrew books. JD: They'll give you all of your ipa recipes and bitter recipes and stuff, and then they reserve the chapter for weird stuff at the back. JD: And so there was one called the joy of home brewing. JD: Can't remember what edition it was, but by Charlie Papazian. JD: And he had like a one pager on spruce beer, some notes on it, and I just thought, well, that's really interesting, like you flavouring a beer with something that wasn't hops or trying to balance it with something hops. JD: And he described the flavor that he got out of brewing with spruce as cola, like in a evergreen kind of woody sort of way, almost like dandelion and burdock. JD: Traditional rooty. JD: I don't want to say piney, I always resist saying piney because it's not a pine tree, it's a spruce tree. JD: But I'll get to this next bit in a minute. JD: It contains lots of pineen, that terpene, which is why it smells the way it does. Rob (Host): Yeah, it's a real fine line, isn't it? Rob (Host): Or it's a sliding scale you can get for those between terpene and Cola or orange sometimes. JD: Exactly. JD: And I was reading this book and I just looked out the window and we had one tree in our garden. JD: When I was at university, I was sharing a house with those same friends. JD: We all end up living together for some strange reason. JD: It was quite a funny story and it looked right and I was like, okay, let's read up on spruce trees and see if I can get it identified sure enough, it was a spruce tree was brewing spruce beer that very weekend. JD: Because by the grace of somebody up there, I had seen that page at exactly the right picking season and had ingredients to brew a pale beer. JD: So brewed that, and I have a really strong memory in my mind. JD: We used to invite friends over to share the beers that we made, because you can't just make gallons and gallons and gallons of beer and drink it between four of you, unfortunately. JD: Well, we used to invite our neighbors over and things like that and have parties for our friends. JD: And it was just a nice, sunny kind of summer evening, because that's when your spruce beer you made in the spring is kind of at its best. JD: I was just sat under the tree, not talking to anybody or engaging with anybody, because it was shady and they were all in the sun. JD: And you just look across the group and you see them all drinking spruce beer. JD: And I've got a glass of it in my hand, and you sort of look up at the tree and I did something stupid, which I still do now, which is just give, like, cheers the tree. JD: I did that on my own and nobody was watching. JD: Yeah. JD: So that's a really powerful memory of facilitating a good time and doing something a little bit interesting, and just introduced all those people to a flavour they'd not come across before, and it tasted great. JD: So when I had my interview at wild weather, Mike asked me, if you could brew one beer, what would it be like commercially? JD: And I said, spruce beer. JD: And he's like, I thought you were going to give us the golden nugget. Rob (Host): At least you were open at the start. Rob (Host): He knew what he was getting into it. JD: Yeah. JD: And he's like, what do you have to do to make that? JD: Then I was like, well, you have to pick lots of little bits off an evergreen tree at exactly the right time of year. JD: They don't weigh very much, but you probably need loads to make a commercial batch. JD: And he's like, this is not the golden egg. JD: This is not the golden egg. JD: But we did in the end, brew a batch of that and I needed help to pick it because it is so labor intense. JD: The very first batch we picked with just three of us, Mike, Matt and myself, and that was just enough to make sort of a half sized batch. JD: Then I thought, well, there we go, it's worked, it's sold out. JD: People have enjoyed it. JD: I've got my little kick from making a commercial with spruce beer, and there really aren't that many breweries doing it. JD: So the next time around, I wanted to make a full size batch. JD: And I can't quite remember how the conversation started, but I ended up making friends with Darren at Rab reading amateur brewers. JD: And we saw a mutual benefit in having volunteers from Rab come out for a bit of a tasting session at wild weather, a picking session out in the forest where I could make use of their sort of free labor and the opportunity to share what I had learned about spruce trees. JD: And, well, you pick spruce tips at the point where they begin growing. JD: And, yeah, you share that information and you make a day of it. JD: You take a couple of beers out into the woods with the permission of the forestry manager. JD: It all has to be done above board. JD: It's almost like you're taking out a school trip as well. JD: You're looking after a group, you're responsible for them and you take them back and have a few beers. JD: Then the beer gets released and you all get to do that thing where you sit down and go like, cheers, trees. JD: That was good. JD: And I have to say, it probably is my favorite, if you want to call it an achievement. JD: My favorite thing I've done so far is making that connection with rab and having that, because that trip then grew and grew and grew until we had like 25 or 30 members out. JD: And you're in that picture, aren't you? JD: I am. Rob (Host): The big one where we sat down. JD: At the forest track. JD: It almost looks like a full team football team photo. JD: Yeah, but we're all out in the forest and we've all got our molt sacks full of spruce t***, as you do. JD: Yeah. JD: And it's turned into a day that everybody looks forward to. JD: So to have that effect and to have that influence on other people and win them over to being interested in something that I thought only I was interested in, to the point where, independently of me spearheading know they were doing a BJCP sanctioned spruce spear competition, a national competition where you had entries coming in from all over the place, as well as the Rab members. JD: And judging that, I just sat down and thought, like, how did I get here? JD: What a cool thing to be sat in a room full of other now spruce beer enthusiasts. JD: I don't work for wild weather anymore. JD: And so we were lucky enough that the forest that we got the trees from was just behind us. JD: With the help of the forestry manager, he highlighted some trees that he wouldn't mind us picking from. JD: And they were altogether on their own and not used for forestry operations, so they weren't for logging or stuff like that. JD: Siren is a bit of a different thing. JD: It's a much bigger kit and you'd need a lot more to do it. JD: And I'm not saying that it's a no, but I'm yet to convince the powers that be that this is what we should do or that I'd like to do. JD: I would love to do one, I really would. JD: And I don't know. JD: It was very sad when I left wild weather because I didn't want to see it go in the way that it did. JD: But then one of the sort of things that buoyed me up a lot is that Darren got in touch with me from rab and said, like, well, you're not at wild weather anymore. JD: But all of the members are saying, are we still going out on our yearly spruce trip to pick? JD: Said, well, we're not doing a commercial beer this year, so how about we just take a couple of beers out into the woods? JD: We'll get permission again, but we only pick what we need for home brewing. JD: And so that's what we did. JD: And I think we'll probably do it again next year and the year after that, definitely. JD: This is a podcast. JD: There's no video. JD: But I'm kind of beaming right now thinking about it. JD: It's a really nice memory that the group wanted to bring me back to lead that. JD: I always call it an expedition. JD: It's just at a walk through the woods of beer. Rob (Host): We have backpacks. JD: Yeah. JD: And the weather's always been kind of favorable for us, but one day it's going to absolutely pee it down and everyone's going to hate it. JD: Yeah. Rob (Host): I think you've been blessed with good weather so far. JD: Yeah, we have. Rob (Host): I think that's another example of facilitating good times. Rob (Host): Right. Rob (Host): And it's a two way street. Rob (Host): And if you zoom in. JD: Yes. Rob (Host): Those people, for some reason, are going into the woods and picking the spruce tips, but they're doing it together, they're learning stuff. Rob (Host): They're doing something brand new and all that. Rob (Host): And it's good that it's gone back the other way, I think, and everyone's enjoying it. Rob (Host): And I love your phrase, cheers to the trees. JD: Yeah. JD: It's a silly thing that I almost was reluctant to say because it's an embarrassing thing to do to raise a glass and literally touch it to the tree and go, cheers, mate. Rob (Host): I think we can say we owe trees a lot anyway. JD: Yeah, we do. Rob (Host): Bruce aside. JD: We do. Rob (Host): That's not a controversial opinion of mine, but, yeah, I think we'll draw to a close on that. Rob (Host): Say thank you very much again for your time for joining us on the podcast. Rob (Host): It's been fascinating to hear everything from you. JD: Thank you. JD: Yeah. JD: Like I said, thanks so much again for the invitation and the opportunity to share, albeit in a very one sided. Rob (Host): Way, a classic podcast. JD: Yeah, I know. Rob (Host): Thank you very much. JD: Thank. JD: Cheers. JD: Cheers.

Discover more beer people

Rob Cadwell

JD

Transcript

Discover more beer people

Matt Curtis

Andy Barnes