Hayley Pearce

Welcome to we are beer people, a podcast all about the many different people who help us enjoy beer.

*This is a bumper two-part episode. In the first part we focus mainly on Fuller's and the earlier part of Hayley's career whilst the second part picks up when Hayley joins Siren Craft Brew.*

So today, I'm heading to Staines and to one of the local pubs of Hayley Pearce, shift brewer at Siren Craft Brew. Hayley's brewing career started with homebrewing with her Dad, before joining Fuller's as part of their graduate scheme and going through a number of different stations, training to run the big kit, helping commission and run the pilot kit at the brewery before joining Siren Craft Brew.

We talk about the differences of what it's like working for a family brewer - "standing on the shoulder of the giants" of previous generations that have brewing at that since 1845 - versus at relatively small (although probably medium-sized) craft brewery founded 11 years ago that has a range spanning everything from West Coast to barley wines, braggots and everything in between. 

Along the way Hayley has - in her words - had to figure out her way of doing things in breweries that have often been built around men; with processes, tools and designs that haven't changed much in generations. Hayley's been a proponent for opening doors and removing obstacles to help open brewing up to more people that might otherwise be put off.

We talk about keeping fermenters warm with ski jackets, the ballet performance of getting large malt sacks into the mill with a wheelbarrow and the different languages of brewing that are spoken at different breweries by different people.

So join us as we have a chat with one of the beer people.

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Follow Hayley: On Twitter @sirencbhayley and on Instagram @hayley.pearce

Intro/outro music: That One Time by Midnight Daydream

Transcript

Please note this is an automated transcript (so will certainly contain errors and mistranslations but should give you a good gist of the conversation):

Hayley: Yeah, it was, I think, simultaneously the absolute best time of my life, where I grew the most, learned the most, matured the most, but also the hardest, most grueling and stressful time. Hayley: I wouldn't ever take it back as, as hard as I know it. Rob (Host): Hello and welcome to we are beer people, a podcast all about the many different people who help us enjoy beer. Rob (Host): I'm your host, Rob Cadwell, and I reckon if you're listening to this, then there's a good chance that you are one of the beer people too. Rob (Host): You might be involved in the world of beer. Rob (Host): You may want to find out more about the industry, or perhaps you simply enjoy drinking the stuff. Rob (Host): So join me now as I have a chat with one of the beer people. Rob (Host): So today I'm heading to stains and to one of the local pubs of Hayley Pierce, chef brewer at Siren Craft Brew. Rob (Host): And Haley's brewing career started when she joined Fuller's as part of their graduate scheme, going through a number of different stations before being trained to run the big brew kit. Rob (Host): She helped install and run the pilot kit at the brewery before joining a very different operation at Siren Craft Brew. Rob (Host): Along the way, Haley has, in her words, had to figure out her way of doing things in breweries that have often been built around men with processes, tools and designs that haven't changed much in generations. Rob (Host): And Hayley's been a proponent for opening doors and removing obstacles to help open brewing up to more people that might otherwise be put off. Rob (Host): And this is part one of a two part episode. Rob (Host): In the first part, we focus mainly on Fuller's and the earlier part of Haley's career, whilst the second part picks up when Haley joins Siren craft brew. Rob (Host): So join us as we have a chat with one of the beer people. Rob (Host): Thank you very much, Haley, for joining us today. Hayley: No problem. Rob (Host): And we're here at the swan, which is a fuller's pub on the side of the River Thames. Hayley: Yeah, no, it's lovely here. Hayley: As far as sort of older pubs go, this is one of the nicest in my area. Hayley: Know, being able to see the Thames, have a fire on all that kind of stuff. Rob (Host): It's what winters are made for us. Hayley: It is what, winter? Hayley: Exactly. Rob (Host): Very good. Rob (Host): But yeah. Rob (Host): Thank you very much for joining us and it's good to be here. Rob (Host): So where have you been today? Hayley: So I was on the early shift at Sirencraft Brew today. Hayley: I've been on what we call the cellar shift. Hayley: So I've been dry hopping tanks, helping to yeast off the tanks, yeast off. Rob (Host): Taking off the yeast at the bottom? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So we're moving the yeast from the bottom of the tanks, taking samples to see what gravity they're up to, making sure they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Hayley: All sorts of things. Hayley: What else have been up to? Hayley: It all blurs into one. Rob (Host): And then we have the cheek of inviting you onto podcast in the evening after you being on in the early. Rob (Host): Thank you very much for that. Rob (Host): I wonder if you can just take a moment and just give us a little overview of who you are and what you do. Hayley: Yes. Hayley: So, I'm Haley, I am 34. Hayley: I'm a shift brewer at Siren Craft Brew. Hayley: I'm originally from Lancashire. Hayley: I came down to London to do a degree in biochemistry that was at Imperial College. Hayley: And I had the plan to just go straight back home afterwards, but got my job at Fullers literally within weeks of graduating. Hayley: So didn't go back, did still intend on going back. Hayley: But then I met my husband and so it's all his fault, basically. Hayley: I'm stuck here. Rob (Host): Everything's keeping you from going back. Rob (Host): So was it always going to be beer? Rob (Host): So you mentioned you went from uni into fullers. Hayley: Not necessarily. Hayley: I enjoyed beer and I enjoyed home brewing. Hayley: I used to homebrew with my dad, but I hadn't really thought of that. Hayley: It could be a career. Hayley: I was in my final year at uni and I was working in the labs and I was looking at all sorts of different options and different sort of ways into trying different roles because I didn't know what I would be good at. Hayley: And I found all sorts of different graduate schemes, so some with NHS, some with pharmaceutical companies, that kind of thing. Hayley: And I'd been on a trip to fullers as part of my degree. Hayley: And it really got me thinking about how my hobby and my degree were actually really closely linked together because I'd never really put that link together before, but when they were thinking about actually brewing the biochemical process and the yeast and all that sort of stuff, that got me thinking along those lines. Hayley: But I still hadn't got to a point where, yeah, this is a career path. Hayley: I didn't really know how to put the two together. Hayley: And then as I was looking through graduate schemes, I just happened upon an advert for Fuller's graduate scheme and I was just like, what's this? Hayley: And went through and it said, oh, yeah, you can spend time in all different departments and then you can specialize in whatever you're interested in. Hayley: And I'm thinking, yep, okay, this is what I want awesome. Hayley: I thought it was like it was made up at know. Hayley: Maybe it would just be something that wouldn't really lead where I wanted to go, but going through it, I thought, I'm pretty sure I can take this somewhere. Hayley: So, yeah, I went through a really long selection process for. Hayley: It took months. Hayley: All these different things that we had to do. Hayley: And it was only the second year's worth of intake as well, so I didn't really know much about it. Hayley: And then, yeah, in the end, they were only supposed to take two of us in, but they just said that the applicants were so strong, they took three of us in. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And then didn't look back after that. Rob (Host): Fantastic. Rob (Host): I guess at a homebrew level, your first thing isn't thinking about microbiology. Rob (Host): No, of what you're doing. Rob (Host): It's just, will this make beer at the end of it? Hayley: Well, yeah, not even will this make beer. Hayley: It was kind of more like, will this make something that's drinkable? Hayley: It might just be something that vaguely resembles beer and is just about drinkable. Hayley: Won't turn your stomach or make you ill. Hayley: That's good. Rob (Host): But it must have done all right if it didn't put you off the path of going into brewing. Rob (Host): Then at that point. Hayley: We didn't have the greatest success rate, me and my dad. Hayley: I mean, temperature control, for one, was a massive problem. Hayley: I remember having these big plastic tanks of beer in my bedroom and I was trying to keep. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And so I put my own ski jacket over around the tank to try and keep it warm. Hayley: And so, yeah, I'm obviously sort of trying to sleep and I can just hear this thing in the corner of my room, like. Rob (Host): You'Ve brought a creature. Hayley: In and stinking as well. Rob (Host): Just like letting off gas. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Making all the noises and all the smells that it was probably not supposed to. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Mum was like, are you sure you're all right with all this sulfur and stuff in your room? Hayley: Don't really know, but it's fine. Rob (Host): We'll find out. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So we did drink, like, quite a lot of it, but whether anybody else would have drunk it is the question. Hayley: I think we were quite. Hayley: It was our little creature, so we were all right with it, but I think anybody else might just pass it out. Rob (Host): I definitely remember my first sort of brews were ones I did at uni, which was like an extract kit or something like that. Rob (Host): When those sort of hot syrup tins you sort of heat up, mix together, probably added the yeast way too hot and all that sort of stuff. Rob (Host): Definitely fermented it, like, way too hot as well, I think, because we had, like, a student house where the heating wouldn't go off that was warm, and it made alcohol. Rob (Host): So that's something. Rob (Host): But, yeah, I definitely don't remember much about it and threw a lot of it away. Rob (Host): And then the difference for me was then going into all grain and nerding out on stuff a little bit more to go. Rob (Host): Right. Rob (Host): The fermenting bit, which I pay no attention to, is actually really important. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: That's where if you're going to form sort of off flavors and things like that, or drive them off, then you've got to get it. Rob (Host): That's the time. Hayley: I think that was the biggest struggle with homebrew. Hayley: Until you've got a fairly reasonably well controlled kit, it's just so hard to keep all of your variables where they're supposed to be and before you sort of really know what you're doing, you don't really know what you're trying to control and when and why, either. Rob (Host): It's such a rabbit hole of, like. Rob (Host): And finding out why you do stuff, whether it's received wisdom or actually, there's a real reason why you do it, and it creates x, Y and z and all that. Hayley: And it wasn't as easy back then to google everything. Hayley: No, Google was almost in its infancy back then, and so anything that my dad tried to pass down to me, well, he probably just mostly made know. Hayley: Well, neither of us died. Rob (Host): You're here to tell the. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Hayley: That's it. Rob (Host): Probably not true from a microbiology point of view, but, no, we're still here. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: We never did figure out what it was that made my dad's eyelids flaky, but. Hayley: I'm sorry, one of the beers we made made my dad's eyelids flaky. Rob (Host): Really? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: We couldn't figure out why. Hayley: It was just the weirdest thing, but we didn't put two and two together at first. Hayley: My dad was just like, oh, I've got some sort of weird expiry or something on my eyes. Hayley: And then we wouldn't drink in the week, and it would clear up and drink in the weekend. Hayley: It didn't come back. Hayley: Wait, hang on. Rob (Host): Every time we do this. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Every time we drink this beer, your eyelids go weird. Rob (Host): A full sensory experience. Rob (Host): So you're in fullers, then. Rob (Host): What were your first roles you were doing when you were at fullers? Hayley: So I joined on the graduate scheme, which meant we all went on six month rotations. Hayley: Or they were supposed to be six months, but it depended on what you were good at and what you were passionate about. Hayley: They could change the length so that you would still get some input and to see things, but spend more time on the things you were really good at. Hayley: So I started out in what they called green team. Hayley: So it was still sort of a fairly new thought at the time, but it was all about how to save energy and prevent waste and all that kind of thing. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So it was crazy. Hayley: I went around loads of different fullers pubs and they wanted to roll out led lights to the pubs. Hayley: That was one of my big jobs, like, go around all the pubs and make a note of every single light bulb that they had. Rob (Host): Wow. Hayley: And then try to find an Led version of this light, and then tried to convince the manager that he wanted to swap over to this LED version, which they never did want to swap. Rob (Host): Over to more expensive to buy an led bulb up front. Hayley: And they just always said, because led lights back then were naf. Hayley: And so what the managers were saying was true. Hayley: They were saying, it doesn't have the atmosphere, it doesn't work, they don't look nice. Rob (Host): They're all bright white, almost blue. Hayley: Yes. Hayley: Massive, not dimmable, all that kind of thing. Hayley: So I spent most of the time basically just burning my fingers trying to get light bulbs out of places I probably shouldn't have been doing, because I'd always ring ahead, make sure you don't put any of your lights on this morning before I come. Hayley: All the lights would be on when you got there deliberately, maybe. Hayley: Yeah, she's coming. Hayley: Even the ones we don't need. Hayley: Yes, I did a lot of that and worked on all sorts of strange things that I didn't even know existed, like voltage optimization and all sorts of things. Hayley: So it did open my eyes to a lot that then sort of later took me into a more personal journey of environment and stuff like that. Hayley: So, yeah, that was a good start. Hayley: And then from there, I moved into operations and I had loads of different projects, because there was lots of different managers within operations. Hayley: So some of my projects were on the bottling line. Hayley: So it was about optimizing the bottling line. Hayley: So that was really interesting. Hayley: Where are the pinch points on a bottling line? Hayley: How do you improve efficiency of it? Hayley: That kind of thing. Hayley: Then there was things like, how do you optimize the CIP of tanks? Hayley: I had no idea. Hayley: Had to research it all. Rob (Host): And CIP being. Rob (Host): Cleaning in place. Hayley: Cleaning in place, yeah. Hayley: And the thing that was always quite strange would be that because you had just been thrust into this role and essentially had no knowledge of any of it, you had to go within this six months from zero to an expert in that field to convincing the team that had been doing this job for years and years and years that you may know more than them, that you've learned in one week, and convince them to change what you want them to do. Hayley: So it was never easy, there was always that, like, well, it isn't broke, so we're not going to fix it. Rob (Host): I think especially a brewer like fullers, it's been around for a very long time, 45 or so, wasn't it, at that site? Rob (Host): And then people have been there for decades. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: And some of the people that worked there had worked there since they were sort of 1718 and they were 65 when I met them. Rob (Host): It's quite a hard task for you then to come and say, this is what we need to do. Hayley: Yeah, but I did do some good projects on that. Hayley: I remember giving presentations for Thames water and at some engineering conferences and things like that. Hayley: That was all about what we'd done with the Cip and how we improved it and stuff, and I take that forward with me everywhere, so, like, that's something I'll look to do at siren when we get to that point. Hayley: So, yeah, there was loads of projects within that and loads of support as well, because obviously having all those different managers was like having lots of different mentors, so I found that I grew quite a lot within that bit and it also meant that I was spending time in the brewery, so I was like, brewery tanks. Hayley: Woo. Hayley: Shiny. Hayley: So that got me more into this idea that I want to be within production. Hayley: Then I was supposed to spend six months in marketing, but when I got there, I was pretty terrible at it. Hayley: I just didn't really have marketing vibe, I didn't have the creativity in that sense. Hayley: So apart from coming up with one of the beer names, which I was really proud of, I came up with this football beer name, which was two halves. Rob (Host): Very good. Rob (Host): Don't think that can ever be beaten. Hayley: Yeah, I was like pretty proud of that. Hayley: That's pretty cool. Hayley: I'll leave on a high. Hayley: So I asked if I could move on because I didn't feel like they were gaining anything from me and I wasn't really gaining anything from trying to market things. Rob (Host): Fair enough. Rob (Host): But I guess that's the beauty of that kind of scheme, if you have got that flexibility and you can move on. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I think what I hadn't realized before I went into that role was that in such a massive company, you don't do a lot of marketing yourself. Hayley: A lot of it is send an email to this person and tell them what you want and then wait for them to do it for you. Hayley: So I moved on from there to purchasing, and that was partially swung by me because I wanted something that would take me back towards production. Hayley: So being within purchasing meant that I could work on, for example, who would do our canning, because fullers don't do their own canning. Hayley: So working on the projects with the guys that ran the bottling line and stuff like that. Hayley: So that was good. Hayley: And then I remember working on who was going to supply the honey for Honeydew and just like, inviting these massive companies, like, rouse honey in and just be like, what are you going to do for me? Hayley: And it's just really quite entertaining at times and interesting. Hayley: It shows you quite how far forward these companies have to think. Hayley: You have to have all of your ingredients agreed and set in place so far in advance, especially if you're going to keep going brewing, keep it all going, even if something goes wrong, you've got contingency. Hayley: So that was quite eye opening. Rob (Host): Yeah, I guess things like hop contracts and all that sort of stuff are years out, aren't they? Rob (Host): It's all got to be grown and the farmer needs to know that they've got a customer for it when it's grown and all that sort of stuff. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: And I didn't realize that until before then. Hayley: I also didn't realize how much I like going to the races either. Hayley: It was all right when it was free. Rob (Host): I think that's the thing, isn't it? Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): You're not losing anything as well on those days. Hayley: Yeah, you're fine. Rob (Host): That's very good. Rob (Host): So, yeah, so you sort of worked your way through to that and then was part of the rotation that you got to go on to brewing. Hayley: So I got towards the end of my purchasing rotation, and at that point, I was like, yeah, I really want to dip my toes into the brewing side of things. Hayley: Georgina Young was in charge at the time, and I've sort of tried to attack it two ways. Hayley: So I knew that you could do some qualifications in brewing that you could relatively teach to yourself. Hayley: So I thought, right, well, I'm going to start the first one. Hayley: So I started doing my certificate in brewing while I was still in purchasing. Hayley: And I also thought, right, go and chat to George, which at the time, obviously, george is an amazing, lovely woman, but I was a little bit like, need to really put my big gump up for this. Hayley: So I remember sort of going to see her and just trying to explain to her how I felt about it. Hayley: And was there anything that she could do that meant I could dip my toes in? Hayley: And if not, sort of prove to myself, try and prove to others that could give me a go and see? Hayley: And I remember she said to me, well, Haley, you do know it's not actually glamorous. Hayley: And I was know. Hayley: I know. Hayley: I understood. Hayley: I'd seen what the guys did. Hayley: I knew it wasn't glamorous and things. Hayley: She was like, okay. Hayley: And then after chatting for a bit, I think she could sort of see in me that I just wanted to give it a go and see. Hayley: So, yeah, she decided to just give me that chance. Hayley: And she said I could join the team for six months, but that I had to start right at the bottom with the most dirty, rubbish job possible. Rob (Host): What's the worst job, then? Hayley: So I started off on the power flow shift. Hayley: They called it power flow. Hayley: It was running their sort of giant heat exchanger that takes the work from the kettle, cools it, and transfers it to the fe, the fermenting vessel. Hayley: So you had someone whose whole job it was to do all of these transfers and clean the fes and connect all the hoses up. Hayley: So I have been back since, and they've got a lot more pipe work now. Hayley: But then when I joined, what we called the workway was above your head. Hayley: And so for me, not only was it above my head, it was really high up compared to me. Hayley: And the hoses, they're three inches wide, so they're massive and they're not very flexible. Hayley: So you'd have these really heavy hoses, and you had to connect them up to, like, a fitting above your head. Hayley: And you'd be sort of, like, wrestling with it and trying. Hayley: You couldn't see what you were connecting it to because it's above you. Hayley: You're trying to fit it on. Hayley: And God's like, the amount of times the guys would just be standing there, like, watching me, just giggling in the corner, like, thanks, guys. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And sometimes you'd think you'd get it, but then it would slip off and smack you in the face or something. Hayley: It's like, oh, no, God. Rob (Host): Definitely given the job to make sure if you like that, then you probably will stick around for the other stuff as well. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And I think the other thing was, I'd never done shifts either. Hayley: So suddenly being thrust into, like, 530 starts, I just didn't know what I was doing. Rob (Host): Not for the first 4 hours or so. Hayley: Yeah, but not even that. Hayley: I didn't even know how to run my life with a shift pattern. Hayley: I'd get up in the morning and the amount of times I'd go to work and be like, oh, I haven't got any food. Hayley: And I just hadn't thought ahead that I would need to prepare food the night before and take it with me because I was so used to just the office roll gets to twelve, you all soft to the cafeteria, get whatever you want for an hour. Hayley: It wasn't like that. Hayley: You didn't get an hour's lunch break where you wander off and get whatever you like. Hayley: Your lunch was taken in random bits and bobs in and around in between. Rob (Host): A process. Hayley: That was it. Hayley: Yeah, you might set a clean going on an FB and be like, right, okay, well, I've got 20 minutes. Hayley: I'm going to quickly go and eat something. Hayley: And I remember sort of slowly getting used to this idea that I would need food. Hayley: And so there was a few times where I'd remember on my way to work that I needed food, and all I could do was bob into the nearest shop. Hayley: And I remember one day that my food for the day was a bunch of bananas, because that's all I'd managed to grab. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And there's guys just looking at me like, what are you doing? Hayley: That butcher? Hayley: Banana? Rob (Host): I just love bananas. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I just wasn't very good at that side of things because I've never done it. Rob (Host): I hope you're enjoying our chat, and if you like what you're hearing, there are a few things you can do that really help us out and help other people find the podcast, follow or subscribe to. Rob (Host): We are beer people. Rob (Host): Wherever you get your podcasts, and leave a review or rating, or share the episode on your socials, or even in actual real life. Rob (Host): And if you want to stay up to date with all things, we are beer people. Rob (Host): You can visit our website at Wearebeerpeople co. Rob (Host): Uk where you can sign up for a monthly newsletter, and you can follow us on social media at wearebeerpeople. Rob (Host): And if you have any questions or comments or want to hear from any beer people, then pop me a message. Rob (Host): Now back to the podcast. Hayley: But even just things like the terminology for things and the tools, because the guys are trying to train me and they assume a certain amount of knowledge. Hayley: So they'd go like, oh, pass me that three inch RJT. Hayley: And I'd be thinking, okay, firstly, how big is three inches. Hayley: And then, secondly, what's an RJT? Hayley: So just stuff like that took me ages. Hayley: And trying to learn what pump was for what? Hayley: Because they would say, oh, yeah, and attach it to the cip pump, as opposed to a pump for work or whatever else. Hayley: I was like, oh, which one's worse? Rob (Host): Meanwhile, you're just looking at a load of connections. Hayley: Or they'd say, oh, yeah. Hayley: So just put that swing bend on the manifold. Rob (Host): Course, it's like a whole nother language, isn't it? Hayley: A whole different language. Rob (Host): It's probably like brewing language. Rob (Host): Plus Fuller's layer of brewing language as well. Hayley: There is. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And so even just that took me ages. Hayley: And then they had the physical side of things, but they also had it on a computer as well. Hayley: So you had to not only find your way around the brewery, which, when it's on three levels and several different rooms, so confusing. Hayley: I got so lost. Hayley: But then you had to also relate it back to what you could see on the screen and understand that some of the valves were manual, but some of the valves you controlled on the screen. Hayley: So if you needed to make a route from one place to another, you had to think to yourself, right, I've got to control some of these valves on the computer, but I also need to remember which ones were hand valves. Hayley: And the amount of times I just would nearly do something. Rob (Host): That sort of feeling. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: You know, even the day about, like, sometimes learning is, like, really uphill. Hayley: It felt like a cliff that was dangling off. Hayley: Dear life, please let me get this and not fall off this cliff. Rob (Host): Yeah, you did go over that cliff, then. Hayley: Yeah, I just about made it through. Hayley: And so I went back to George and said, like, right, I've made it through that. Hayley: I'm still really keen. Hayley: I'll vet every single one of Sainsbury's bananas. Hayley: Yeah, I know what I'm doing. Hayley: And so she said, right, okay, we'll try you on the yeast shift. Hayley: So that was a whole other ballgame. Hayley: You had to crop all of the yeast from the tanks. Hayley: And they had yeast storage vessels. Hayley: So you'd be storing it in the vessels ready for pitching. Hayley: But they had, like, yeast storage tanks as well outside. Hayley: So you'd be cropping from fes into yeast storage vessels that would be used for pitching, but not all of it. Hayley: The bits you didn't use, you would empty out and put into the yeast storage tank outside. Hayley: That was waste. Hayley: So that would go to, say, marmite, for example. Hayley: So if Marmite turn up in the big lorry, you've got to go and sort them out and empty these massive yeast tanks into their lorry, which is fine until it's the middle of February and it's freezing and it's like six in the morning. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): Then you're right. Rob (Host): Connecting pipes again. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: That are covered in freezing cold yeast. Rob (Host): Yeah, that was not the one. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And, and I would just pretty much get covered in yeast every day. Hayley: I smelled really bad. Rob (Host): Smile my tea. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: But it was one of those weird things where you sort of got used to it within your team. Hayley: So you'd, like, get to the end of your shift, and because the shifts were so early, you'd be done at, say, half one in the afternoon. Hayley: And so you and some of the guys on the shift would be like, oh, yeah, let's go to the pub. Hayley: And so you'd just be there in the pub, stinking the whole place out, but not really knowing because you've got no filter anymore. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And that shift was really time sensitive because everything that was happening around you, you needed to have ready in time for something else. Hayley: And the fermenters they had at fullers were put in, in sections, and so they were all slightly different. Hayley: So you had to get used to the way you would crop those tanks and the way you would crop those tanks and everything all just slightly different. Hayley: But yeah, eventually got all the way through that six months and then spoke to George again. Hayley: I was like, I've done that. Hayley: I did have a few hiccups, but, yeah, mostly calamity free. Rob (Host): What were the hiccups then, if you don't mind me asking? Hayley: Well, one of my biggest hiccups was one day I was rushing around towards the end of a shift, and I needed to empty one of the yeast storage vessels. Hayley: And to do that, you had the hose coming from the bottom of the yeast storage vessel, and you had the hose that led to the outside tank, and you had to connect those together and then open the vessel on the computer screen. Hayley: So I'm dashing around and trying to get samples and bits and bobs. Hayley: I'll get my two hoses ready and then make sure that the tank is up to pressure. Hayley: I had to have it at 1 bar so that it had enough pressure to fall fully eased out. Hayley: Yeah, I'm at pressure. Hayley: And where the computer was in this little office was just to the side of where the tank was. Hayley: So I go in and it's just as simple as just pressing basically open on this automatic big red button. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So press open. Hayley: And the hose that was attached to the bottom of the youth vessel just started like a snake firing everywhere. Hayley: It was just like firing all over the room. Hayley: And in my panic, I didn't know what to do. Hayley: Just at the side of that tank were some stairs. Hayley: The guy that was training me came running down the stairs and he's like, what are you doing? Hayley: And I'm just like. Hayley: He's like, close the bow. Hayley: So close the bow. Hayley: But by that point, I mean, it must have only been, I don't know, 5 seconds. Rob (Host): Yeah, slow motion, though. Hayley: Yeah, all in slow motion with me feeling like it was about ten minutes for firing yeast all over the brewery. Rob (Host): There's now a snake in the brew house. Hayley: It was everywhere. Hayley: It was all over the ceiling, all over the walls, all over the tanks. Rob (Host): Oh, my God. Rob (Host): Yeah, 1 bar is going to do that. Hayley: Isn't especially out of like, it was a one and a half inch hose. Rob (Host): So it was just, yeah, there's some hydraulics involved in. Hayley: God, I remember feeling so bad afterwards. Hayley: I was walking home from work and I rang George, because I was like, george, I need to admit I've done something, because I just thought I better just tell her I just need to cleanse myself of this. Hayley: Yeah, she was just not actually that bothered. Hayley: Have you washed it down? Rob (Host): Have you now closed the valve? Hayley: She was just like, have you washed it down? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: She's like, all right then. Hayley: Well, yeah, these things happen. Hayley: See you tomorrow. Hayley: Just like, oh, okay, fine. Rob (Host): Few quite an experience, though. Rob (Host): And probably something that makes you think every single time now when you're doing anything similar. Hayley: Yeah, definitely. Hayley: Because there's always that mantra of making sure you have understood what your route is doing before you actually open any valves. Hayley: So I still do that now at siren. Hayley: I'll start at the end of my route, go all the way back to the beginning and make sure. Hayley: Have you got all the right valves open? Hayley: Does it go where you think it's going? Hayley: Because it doesn't take much to just. Rob (Host): No. Rob (Host): To have a valve pointing one way than that. Rob (Host): And I guess every brew house is so different, so bespoke. Rob (Host): You could be an expert at Fuller's, go to another brewery and everything's completely different. Rob (Host): It might even be a smaller brew kit, but it's got completely different connections, different software, different kind of terminology, all that sort of stuff. Rob (Host): So you have to learn that again. Hayley: Yes. Hayley: I was surprised actually how much I had to learn because I thought, well, I've been at this like eleven years now, pretty sure I know what I'm doing. Hayley: But Fullers must be a good place to learn. Hayley: Turned up at siren and I was just kind of, like, bombarded with new stuff. Hayley: Again, even just the terminology is different. Hayley: So where the brewers are trying to explain to you, well, this is how we do this process, where we would say, for example, at Fullers, we'd say we were researching the work within the mash ton. Hayley: So to clarify the work. Hayley: And at siren, they were saying, oh, yeah. Hayley: So in order to do the ball off. Hayley: A ball off? Hayley: What is this? Hayley: Strange? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: But it just depended, I think, who had set that brewery up and who had taught the people that worked there and what they called it. Hayley: So it's the same process, but they just had different terms for it. Hayley: And then where I'm used to calling the powerflow, powerflow all the time, they have heatx and you just get. Hayley: So you knew what they were. Rob (Host): You've got to adapt. Rob (Host): So you find yourself in France for something. Rob (Host): You need to quickly learn the language. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: I think I sort of thought going from big to small would be relatively easy, but I think it's harder. Hayley: I think probably going from small to big would be easier. Hayley: I sometimes feel like I sort of did my career backwards. Hayley: Kind of started out massive in this big brewery with loads of automation, and then went somewhere small where everything's hand done by hand. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Manual and stuff. Hayley: When I listened to other people's stories, I was like, mine's story is completely backwards compared to yours. Rob (Host): It's a different. Hayley: Exactly. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): After you're looking after the yeast and taming that hose, that was sort of just going all over the brewery. Rob (Host): What did you do after that? Hayley: So after that, went to George again and she said, ok, I'd gotten my certificate in brewing and I'd started my diploma in brewing by then. Hayley: And she said, well, I can see you're keen. Hayley: You're doing your diploma. Hayley: That's great. Hayley: Let's start you off as a brewer's assistant, so that you can see more of the brewery and relate it to what you're studying and stuff like that. Hayley: So I started off as an assistant, and at Fullers, that meant that you were measuring out all of the raw materials, so you would measure out all the hops. Hayley: You'd be in the hop loft for hours each day. Hayley: You were measuring out tens of, well, hundreds of kilos of hops into these giant buckets and all the sort of powders. Hayley: So, like, yeast bit and stuff like that, you'd be measuring all that out, but it probably sounds fairly simple. Hayley: But when there are so many different hops. Hayley: And the first job is just like, right, where is this hop? Hayley: Going round and find that? Rob (Host): Is it a fridge or freezer? Hayley: Kind of in a fridge. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): Spending a lot of time in a fridge, then trying to find a hot. Hayley: Like, a giant walking fridge, which was delightful. Hayley: In summer, if you're too hot, it was great. Rob (Host): Yeah. Hayley: Just ducking to that. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: If you were already cold and you went in the fridge, it was even more cold. Hayley: Once you'd found the hops, then it was a case of, right, okay, how much do I need? Hayley: And you'd often need boxes and boxes of hops. Hayley: And they're 20 kilos at a time. Hayley: So you'd be like, right, it's probably. Rob (Host): Up and downstairs at this point. Hayley: It was all on a flat within there. Hayley: But, yeah, these boxes are quite unwieldy. Hayley: They're really strange sizes and shapes. Hayley: These, like, big, long rectangles. Hayley: For me, I was kind of like, how am I even going to carry this stupid big box and take it over? Hayley: And then you had your big bucket on the weighing scales and weigh it all out. Hayley: So it take you a long time because you had to weigh out four brews worth of hops, or all of the nexus hops, and tick it all off as you're going along. Hayley: So that'd be part of your job. Hayley: And then another bit was when you do the milling. Hayley: And a lot of the milling, to be fair, came from a silo. Hayley: So, like, the main paleo malt was in a silo. Hayley: But then there were speciality malts that you had to add by hand. Hayley: And when I first started there, I don't think they have them anymore. Hayley: When I first started there, they had 50 kilo stacks of malt. Rob (Host): Oh, my God. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So the guys that were adding this malt, I'd been doing it for years, and they basically tried to show me how to add this Malt to. Hayley: They called it the chute. Hayley: It was basically a hole in the ground that led to where the malt was going. Hayley: But when you were in the malt loft, the chute was up a step. Hayley: So you had, like, a ramp up to the chute, and you had these giant bags, and they had these sack barras. Hayley: And so they'd sort of shuffle the sack onto the barra, and they'd have almost like, a Runway up to the chute. Hayley: And they just perfected it like it was some sort of ballet. Rob (Host): It sounds like an olympic sport. Hayley: Yeah, it just was. Hayley: I remember watching. Hayley: Yeah, I was in absolute awe of these people, because back then as well, the bags didn't have, like, pull tabs like they have now. Hayley: They were just this weird string thing where you had to know exactly which string to pull, otherwise it wouldn't open the bag. Rob (Host): I know what the one you mean, actually. Rob (Host): And I end up making it worse. Rob (Host): If you can't pull anything. Hayley: Exactly. Rob (Host): Just there with scissors or something. Rob (Host): It's the only way. Hayley: They'd have a knife, and they'd just nick a little bit of the string, magically come apart. Hayley: Yeah, just pull it. Hayley: And then they'd, like, rock the whole thing sort of back and take a run up at the chute, and they'd get to the perfect bit of the ramp stop and just sort of flick the whole barrel. Hayley: And the bag would just, like, almost in slow motion, just, like, into the chute. Hayley: And all the mop would just magically fall into the chute. Hayley: And then all they had to do was just grab the bottom of the bag and shake a few left bits in. Hayley: And that was it. Rob (Host): Like a tablecloth, just. Rob (Host): I can't imagine that going past any health and safety. Rob (Host): The protest video for this is what you need to do. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So they were trying to teach me to do that. Hayley: I was terrible at it. Hayley: I didn't know what string I was pulling, so I was constantly trying to figure that out. Hayley: Then I didn't know where to stop on the ramp. Hayley: So I'd either stop too soon and the bag would just go on the floor, molt everywhere, or I'd stop too late. Hayley: And if you overshot the chute, the malt went all over the stairs behind the chute. Rob (Host): Oh, good. Hayley: Molt just cascading down the stairs. Rob (Host): Stakes were very high then, weren't they? Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: Sorry. Hayley: That was one of the other jobs. Hayley: I'd say they were sort of, like, the bulk of the jobs, and then the other bits were sort of then moving stuff around. Hayley: So when you measured hops out, for example, in the morning, you had to go and get them all from the hot loft and put them in the lift, which was a whole different debacle. Hayley: Trying to do, like, hot bucket Tetris into the lift and get them on barracks and take them all the way around to the brew deck. Hayley: And I kept spilling them on myself. Rob (Host): First yeast, now hops. Rob (Host): I was constantly covered, basically beer at this point. Hayley: Yeah, because there was, like, ramps everywhere, and it took me ages to figure out my own way of doing stuff. Hayley: And I'd be just constantly trying to copy the guys. Hayley: So, for example, I'd be going up a ramp with a barra with big, massive buckets of hops on. Hayley: But because I'm so short, by the time I get the barra, halfway up the ramp, the buckets are kind of like horizontal, so they would just fall off and the hops would go all over me. Hayley: I did eventually realize I could just walk backwards up the ramp. Hayley: I didn't have to go forwards. Hayley: But I didn't know that at first. Rob (Host): No, but I guess it's all those. Rob (Host): Why would you. Rob (Host): There's all these processes that are in place. Rob (Host): They've used them for decades, they've always worked. Rob (Host): And you're now encountering times when it doesn't work. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: I don't think they'd ever had to teach someone quite so small before. Hayley: Yeah, that was quite interesting, coming up with my own versions of stuff and the amount of people that would go, you know, it's easier if you just push it forward. Hayley: Yeah, no, I've tried that. Hayley: Don't worry, this is my way. Rob (Host): That's great. Rob (Host): So that was as a brewer's assistant. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So did that for six months. Hayley: Carried on with my diploma. Hayley: So I'd got two of my diplomas modules through by them, and then they said, right, okay, you're ready. Hayley: We're going to train you on the kit. Hayley: The best thing ever. Hayley: But it was really funny because the stuff I remember from those sort of first days were probably not all the things I was taught. Hayley: It was all just like OD, things like that. Hayley: One of the brewers that taught me used to cook his breakfast on top of the mash ton. Rob (Host): I'm sure, a long, long time ago. Hayley: Yeah, he would just, like, have his breakfast in some foil and he'd just be warming it up on bastion and just stuff like that. Rob (Host): Well, that's saving energy, isn't it? Rob (Host): He's not using energy elsewhere to do that. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And just sort of remembering that I'd be there at half four in the morning, trying not to fall asleep, trying to listen to all of this knowledge that they're trying to pass to me and just, like, absorb, try and soak it all in. Hayley: Be a sponge, but not a sleepy sponge. Hayley: So it was sort of fun, but intense at the same time. Hayley: And I think the volumes that we were working with, it gave you that pressure feeling of like, don't mess this up. Hayley: This is a lot of beer. Hayley: If you do this wrong, you've made a real big mistake. Hayley: It wasn't stressful in that way, but there was just this feeling of like, you're not messing around here, this is big. Hayley: And I remember on my first day of being taught, they'd taken me around all the different vessels and things, and then they showed me into the. Hayley: They called them coppers. Hayley: Siren called them kettles. Hayley: So they showed me into the copper and I looked down, and even though I'd already knew how big the coppers were, because I'd seen the bottom of them and I'd seen the top looking down into it, I just suddenly realized the enormity of this tank. Hayley: And I was, like, thinking about it. Hayley: Of course, they're that massive. Hayley: They're on three stories of the building, so of course they're ginormous. Hayley: But when you're at the bottom of the copper, you can only see the bottom and then the ceiling of that room, and when you're at the top, you can only see the very top and then the floor of that room. Hayley: So it's only when you actually look into them, you're just like, wow. Hayley: Yeah, this is Gino and I'm in control of it. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): Exactly what size was the batch that you were doing? Hayley: So you'd do up to 596 hectiliters in each copper. Hayley: But if you were doing a party go, you were using both coppers at the same time, just sort of spinning plates there. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I'll tell you, that confused your mind, party dialing. Hayley: It's amazing, actually, when you get used to it. Hayley: It's such an amazing way of brewing. Hayley: But getting used to this idea that you're using two mash tons, two coppers and maybe four different fvs, and you might be making three different beers, but all using the same equipment at the same time. Hayley: The sort of maths and prep that goes into how we're going to make three different beers from essentially all the same work and just mix it in different proportions, that was complicated enough in itself, but there was things to take into account, like, well, depending on what tank you were filling, like rich fe, you'd have a different amount of work in the line leading up to it. Hayley: And so you had to take that into account, because to get all of your gravities right in each tank, you had to make sure every single bit of the transfer was right. Hayley: So trying to learn that, it just makes me think. Rob (Host): There was talk about brewing as an art and a science, and it's totally that there, isn't it? Rob (Host): So you've got to really get your head around all of that, which I'm guessing your microbiology background probably helped with in some way of sort of being able to sort of uncover that and navigate your way around that, but then also doing it in real life as well. Rob (Host): Juggling all of that all at once amongst everything else that's happening. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Say the biology side of things. Hayley: I could learn what was happening within the tanks, for example, what's going on within the master. Hayley: And I understood that. Hayley: But the mechanics of how you actually move the liquid around, nothing had prepared me for that. Rob (Host): Like a new skill. Hayley: Oh yeah, massively. Hayley: But especially on that scale where you can't actually see it. Hayley: It was almost as though it was an abstract thought as opposed to being able to see your process. Hayley: So I think it was only once I'd moved on from that and done the same processes, but smaller, that I actually realized what was happening as opposed to just learning verbatim the mechanics of doing it. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): So I guess you could do it on something tangible to make it make sense. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So it took me quite a while to learn, probably about another six months to be sort of fully fledged. Hayley: Once I got to that point, I was pretty comfortable. Rob (Host): Nothing can face you at that point. Hayley: You'd be like sort of spinning templates and the tools would be like, oh yeah, what are you brewing now? Hayley: And blah, blah, blah and asking you all these questions and you're just like chatting away but still on top of. Rob (Host): Everything and all that. Rob (Host): If that had happened in your first week or so, you're not in a great place. Hayley: I'll just add a meltdown. Hayley: But it's a little bit like when you learn to drive and you just feel like you haven't got enough heads or arms or feet or minds. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): You can't speak at the same time. Rob (Host): Or Internet. Rob (Host): You have to focus and do it. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): And that doesn't always help. Hayley: No, exactly. Hayley: But then eventually you get so used to driving that you're also singing along to the radio whilst planning your dinner, thinking about what washing you need to do, what you're doing at the weekend and all of these other different things. Hayley: It became like that. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): Sort of become completely fluent in it. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): It does show, though, I think, why the brewer's assistant is so important. Rob (Host): So if you're focusing on all these things, you really do need the hops to be measured out, all of your additions and all that sort of stuff to be there. Rob (Host): So that person is invaluable as well, sort of, to make it all work together. Hayley: Yeah, it was very important. Hayley: But also as a brewer you had to be careful not to become complacent that that person was doing all of this stuff. Hayley: For you, because you might sometimes get an error. Hayley: So the assistant might weigh out the wrong hop or the right hop, but the wrong bucket or something like that. Hayley: So within this day, where everything was time dependent and you were dashing around like a mad thing, you had to also stop and right open this bucket is this target. Hayley: And you couldn't tell all the hops from all other hops, but there were certain ones where you could be pretty sure, like, that's definitely target or that's definitely fuggles sort of thing. Hayley: So you definitely, in amongst having autopilot, you also needed to be switched on to, what am I actually doing today? Hayley: You couldn't sort of just be cruise. Rob (Host): Control or something like that? Rob (Host): You've got to be sort of proactive and everything. Rob (Host): Yeah, that's cool. Rob (Host): And then how long were you on the big kit for? Rob (Host): I called it the big kit. Hayley: I don't know if it has a different name. Hayley: Yeah, I always call it because Phyllis. Rob (Host): Had the pilot kit as well. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So it was about two years. Hayley: So the pilot kit came on the scene in 2018. Hayley: And you spoke to Henry Kirk, right? Hayley: I have, yeah. Rob (Host): And Henry was the first person we interviewed on we are beer people. Rob (Host): So scroll back to have a listen to that episode. Hayley: At the time, he was my team lead, and as far as I understood, I thought he was going to run the pilot kit. Hayley: So I was just carrying on as a shift brewer. Hayley: I don't know why I thought that's what was happening. Hayley: I don't think anybody actually told me that. Hayley: I think I just assumed that because he was team lead, he would be sorting that out, especially because he wrote recipes and stuff like that. Hayley: And then one day I was on shift and I'm dashing around and I happened to be in the office because I was filling the book out, the recipe book. Hayley: And at the time, the brewing manager was Guy Stewart, and he just called me into his office. Hayley: It's like, oh, have you got a minute? Hayley: Not really, but I'm seeing ten things. Hayley: Yeah, I am spinning all these place, but, yeah, 30 seconds. Hayley: So go into his office and he's like, can you sit down? Hayley: No, I'm in trouble. Hayley: What have I done? Hayley: And he said, oh, Haley, how'd you fancy a holiday? Hayley: And I was thinking, oh, I'm not going back to, like, they'd sent me to Wales and I'd been to, where is tiny Rebel? Rob (Host): Oh, Newport. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: But I'd gone to other places, been to Temby, they'd sent me there. Rob (Host): They call that a holiday as well. Hayley: When they were, do you want to go there? Hayley: Do a little recky on holiday run things and stuff? Hayley: Yes, I'm not going out to Wales. Hayley: No. Hayley: So I was like. Hayley: And he was, no, no. Hayley: Like a proper holiday this time. Hayley: And I'm like, okay, there's definitely a catch. Hayley: What's going on? Hayley: So I'm just like, okay, yeah. Hayley: And he's going, right, so you know the pilot kit? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Right, well, we've been chatting and we've decided that you should be the brewer that helps commission it and then run it. Hayley: What? Rob (Host): Wow. Hayley: What? Hayley: Are you talking about me? Hayley: And obviously I didn't say that because I was just trying to keep it all in. Hayley: A man freaking out. Hayley: I have no idea what you're talking about. Hayley: I remember it was so funny, you know, sometimes your mind just feeds you these little stupid things. Hayley: So somehow in my mind, a weird bit of it decided to go through an entire catalog of. Hayley: Have you ever commissioned anything before? Hayley: And in amongst my panic, my brain was just going, don't worry. Hayley: Don't you remember last year? Hayley: You built that Dyson all by yourself? Hayley: I was like, yeah, what's the difference? Hayley: That'd be fine. Rob (Host): Thanks, brain. Hayley: Yeah, thanks for that. Hayley: Perfect. Hayley: Obviously my heart's going million miles an hour and I'm panicking, but on the outside I'm just going, oh, great. Hayley: Well, what an opportunity. Hayley: Thank you very much. Hayley: He's going, yeah. Hayley: So your first job is you need to go to Bulgaria. Hayley: You're going to go to the factory where they're building the kit. Hayley: We've got all these papers that show you how the kit's supposed to be and you've got to go and check, make sure that it's all going to. Hayley: I'm thinking, cool. Hayley: I don't know how to do any of this help, but, yeah, on the outside I'm just going, wonderful. Rob (Host): Like a swan approach to the pub we're in. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I mean, yeah, you could see a swan probably slightly more panicky than a swan, just on the outside. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: But also, there's also this part of my brain that's like, I really need to get back to the brew. Hayley: Like, stuff's happening over. Rob (Host): I'm sticking. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: I've been more than 30 seconds now, so I'm just like, okay, wow, what a wonderful opportunity. Hayley: This is great. Hayley: And I feel like the next sort of month of my life was just a massive blur just trying to come to terms with this ginormous beast I'd just been handed. Hayley: And, yeah, I remember sort of texting people within the industry that my friends, but that were more experienced than me and just being like, you're never going to guess what this. Hayley: Oh, my gosh, what am I going to do? Hayley: Have you ever done this? Hayley: What do you do? Hayley: And. Hayley: Yeah, just people just be like, it's. Hayley: And eventually I got to know the team better that were working on it. Hayley: So George was, you know, it wasn't like I was all by myself. Hayley: George was there, and there was one of our project engineers, so he was there, and then the guys that were building the kit, so they obviously all knew what they were doing. Hayley: So it was less scary with time. Hayley: But still the most mammoth thing I've ever taken on in life. Rob (Host): Yeah, definitely. Rob (Host): I mean, we've called it a pilot kit, but it's pilot kit by Fuller's standards. Rob (Host): It's ginormous, isn't it? Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): It's 50 bigger than probably a lot of smaller breweries, craft breweries and things like that. Rob (Host): It's huge. Hayley: Yeah, definitely. Hayley: Not only that, it was built to be as close of a replica to the big kit as possible. Hayley: So it had loads of stuff on it that you would not put on a 15 hectilitre kit. Hayley: There was just no reason to have it, other than because they wanted to scale up from small to big. Hayley: They wanted it to be as similar as possible. Hayley: But that meant, like, instead of it having a hydrator, it had a steel smasher, which was like, the most ginormous thing you've seen, because they don't make them for 15 hex eater kits. Hayley: So it was like this giant steel masher going into this tiny little mash ton. Rob (Host): So a grist hydrator combines grain with the hot liquor as it's added into the mash ton. Rob (Host): And the idea is, it's mixed together at this point to avoid any clumps of grain forming. Rob (Host): That would mean you get less out of your mash. Rob (Host): And the steels masher, as Haley says, is like the Rolls Royce of these. Rob (Host): It often uses a big auger that turns to mix all of the grain and water together uniformly, but is often a lot larger. Hayley: It had its own external work boiler, which a lot of small kits don't have because they just use the steam jacket of the kettle. Hayley: So, yeah, loads of things had its own mill and its own grist case and absolutely everything you could control to the nth degree. Hayley: So that it was as similar as possible. Hayley: Yeah, it was, I think, simultaneously the absolute best time of my life, where I grew the most, learned the most, matured the most, but also the hardest. Hayley: Most grueling and stressful time. Hayley: I wouldn't ever take it back, as hard as I know it was. Hayley: If somebody said to get where you are now, you have to go back and do that again, I'd do it again. Hayley: But once it was installed and I was the sole person running it, there's nobody to pass it. Hayley: It's not shift, you can't pass it on to the next person. Hayley: Oh, I haven't quite had time to do that. Hayley: Can you pick this up or whatever? Rob (Host): It kind of stops with you at that point. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And you've got an amount of work you've got to get done. Hayley: And so the amount of weeks where I'd get in at seven and I didn't need till seven every day just to get where I needed to be with this kit. Hayley: And at the same time I was trying to do my final diploma module, which I'd signed up to, not knowing I was going to do everything happening all at once. Hayley: I'd also just bought my house with my husband, was my boyfriend at the time, and it had no heating, didn't have proper electrics, and it was February freezing, so my evenings were spent sitting at the dining room table with several fleeces on, trying to do my revision. Hayley: And my days are just spent in the pilot brewery. Hayley: And I had the watches that count your steps. Rob (Host): Oh, yeah. Hayley: How many steps you can do in the smallest pace possible in one day? Hayley: I'd do like 20,000 steps in a day. Rob (Host): You'd never left that. Hayley: Yeah, but like round around in circles like a crazy person. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So it was just mad. Hayley: I remember one day where the pilot kit was, it was connected to the shop and I remember you could see through all the windows and sometimes people would come up to the window and sort of stare in or whatever. Hayley: But one day somebody started knocking on the window. Hayley: Go away sort of thing, and I turned and it was my. Hayley: Oh. Hayley: So I sort of went over to the window and what are you doing here? Hayley: And he was like, haley, I've not seen you for five days. Hayley: Sorry about that. Hayley: I do exist here. Rob (Host): This is where I live now. Hayley: Yeah, this is my home. Rob (Host): It's got heating. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: It's warmer. Hayley: There's light in here. Hayley: I don't know. Hayley: I formed such an attachment to that kit because it felt like mine, like I had sort of not on my own, but a lot of it brought it into being and what it was and got it going. Hayley: We did three brews as a team of us to get the kit going, but then that was it. Hayley: After those three brews, everyone was like, right, see you. Hayley: Good luck. Hayley: Carry on. Rob (Host): What did that feel like when you had those first brews going through and just try the first beers that came out of it? Hayley: On the first brew day, I got so sort of stressed and agitated by the whole thing and feeling like I was completely out of control, that I just cried, because I was like, I don't know what I'm doing and I'm never going to learn all this. Hayley: It was just so emotional. Hayley: I'd invested so much of my time into it, but in that moment, I felt like I was never going to be enough to understand everything that I needed to understand and be quick enough at doing everything that I needed to do. Hayley: And I just got so overwhelmed. Hayley: But with each brew, I understood more and I got better at what was doing. Hayley: But even so, it was still only three brews. Hayley: So I remember cleaning everything down after the last of the three brews, and then I was supposed to be doing a brew on my own the next day. Hayley: So I just remember this so vividly, standing in front of the tanks and just being like, hi. Hayley: And I actually spoke out loud to the tanks. Rob (Host): You and me? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I was just like, cool. Hayley: So just me and you now, guys, it'll be fine. Hayley: Please be good. Rob (Host): Did they have names? Hayley: Yes. Hayley: So actually, one of them. Hayley: So I'll have to tell you a bit of the backstory, because one of the names comes from my husband. Hayley: So my husband's a police officer, and when he first joined him and the guys that all were on response team together, they'd often have to respond to the drugs and whatever on a Friday or a Saturday, that kind of thing. Hayley: And they would always get the same thing where someone would be going, oh, you're hurting me. Hayley: But I want to make a complaint. Hayley: What's your name? Hayley: And they would all say, my name's Gary. Hayley: And none of the officers were called Gary. Hayley: So these guys sort of go into custody and they. Hayley: Right, I want to make a complaint. Hayley: Okay, which officer? Hayley: Gary? Hayley: Yeah, Officer Gary. Hayley: No problem. Hayley: It wouldn't be any of them. Hayley: But because of that, one day, I was talking to husband and I'm saying, right, I want to give some of the tanks names. Hayley: And so I was going, what about the copper? Hayley: What can I call the copper? Hayley: And he was like, you're for real? Hayley: It's a copper. Hayley: It's got to be called Gary. Hayley: I was like, oh, yeah, obviously. Hayley: So the copper was called Gary. Hayley: And then the other tanks are like the fes. Hayley: Each time that I did a brew like in collaboration with other people, I would be like, okay, well, your brew is the first brew going into this FB. Hayley: Therefore you get to name the FB. Hayley: And so it where people would name the FB. Hayley: So had like a whiteboard in there that would say what was in each of the tanks. Hayley: And it started off quite sensible. Hayley: Fb one, Fb two. Hayley: But over time we just rubbed them all out and put the names of the tanks on, which was fine for me. Hayley: But if I had to say, for example, on a weekend, get someone to take a sample and be like, oh, yeah, you need to take a sample out of, I can't remember what they were called now, but say it was like, bob. Hayley: Yeah, which one's Bob? Rob (Host): You've introduced your own language just to get your own back at this point. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Rob (Host): It's not too far different from when you're in your room with like a fermenter with a ski jacket on at. Hayley: This point, pretty much a bit more control. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): So I think we'll probably go on to talk about siren in the next episode. Rob (Host): So we'll just pause it then. Rob (Host): If everyone can join us shortly, we'll catch up with them then. Hayley: Yes. Rob (Host): So thank you very much for listening and I hope you can join me on the next one. Rob (Host): And this is a part where I ask for your help. Rob (Host): If you haven't done so already, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a review or rating, or share it with others. Rob (Host): This really helps us out and helps other people find the podcast, particularly as we're starting out. Rob (Host): And you can follow us on social media. Rob (Host): Search for wearbeer people all one word. Rob (Host): You can also email us at wearebeerpeoplepod@gmail.com. Rob (Host): Let us know what you think, share your thoughts, and if you have any recommendations for beer people you'd like to hear from. Rob (Host): Until next time, don't forget you, me, us, them, we are all beer people. Hayley: You. Hayley: But I didn't realize quite how much fruit you have got to stuff into a beer to make it fruity. Hayley: Yeah, I remember this. Hayley: The beer that we made had like 1.2 tons of mango puree in it that was added by hand. Hayley: And on that day I was like, well, that's how much mango you need to shove in a beer. Hayley: Like, wow, you. Rob (Host): Hello and welcome to we are beer people, a podcast all about the many different people who help us enjoy beer. Rob (Host): I'm your host, Rob Cadwell, and I reckon if you're listening to this, then there's a good chance that you are one of the beer people too. Rob (Host): You might be involved in the world of beer. Rob (Host): You may want to find out more about the industry or perhaps you simply enjoy drinking the stuff. Rob (Host): So join me now as I have a chat with one of the beer people. Rob (Host): Today we're in stains and we're chatting with Haley Pierce, shift brewer at siren craft Brew. Rob (Host): And this is part two of a two part episode. Rob (Host): In the first part, we focus mainly on Fuller's and the earlier part of Haley's career, whilst this second part picks up when Haley joins siren craft brew. Rob (Host): So if you're joining in the second part and haven't yet listened to the first part, I'd recommend starting with that. Rob (Host): But for now, join us as we have a chat with one of the beer people. Rob (Host): So you went from then the pilot kit at Fullers and you went to siren. Rob (Host): What was the reason then for heading over to Siren? Hayley: So I was really, really enjoying running the pilot kit. Hayley: I got to do loads of collaborations. Hayley: It was really sort of inventive, creative, hands on all the things I really wanted and I was learning so much. Hayley: It was the first time that I'd really been able to make recipes for myself, that kind of thing. Hayley: But when Asaki bought Fullers, although they didn't want to change fullers in itself, the visions for the pilot brewery were the same as Fullers. Hayley: So until they could figure out what exactly they wanted to do with the pilot brewery, they essentially closed it. Hayley: So that meant I was a shift brewer again. Hayley: And when you go from running your own little brewery and having all of this freedom, even with the stresses that came with it, to going back to essentially sort of making the same beers over and over and over, it just started to feel like I wasn't learning. Hayley: And I don't like feeling like that. Hayley: I'm always inspired by what can I learn next? Hayley: What's around the corner? Hayley: What's the new technique that somebody could show me. Hayley: So to do the same thing day in, day out, although I love fillers, and I still do, I absolutely love that brewery, the job itself wasn't making me grow as a person. Hayley: So I sort of thought, okay, I think I'm ready for a move. Hayley: I want it to be more like being in the pilot brewery, but I'd also like to be in a team, because as much as I enjoyed the pilot brewery, when I was doing collaborations, and it was like there was a little team of us, I enjoyed that the most. Hayley: So I looked around for ages, because I wasn't going to leave Fuller for any old thing. Hayley: It had to be the right thing, be worth it. Hayley: Oh, yeah, 100%. Hayley: Especially as by this point, we'd gone into sort of COVID time, of course. Rob (Host): Just to add that in as well. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So I wasn't going to leave job security and everything that I knew for something that might be a complete mistake. Hayley: So after quite a while, I saw that siren were advertising for a shift brewer, and I hadn't ever been to siren, but I knew quite a bit about them. Hayley: So I knew Sean, the head brewer. Hayley: I'd actually met him at Fullers, because we'd done the fullers and friends together, of course. Rob (Host): Yeah. Hayley: So although I wasn't paired with his brewery, a lot of the sort of people that didn't actually do the brewing were paired with other breweries. Hayley: So if it was one of their brews, the brewers still brewed it. Hayley: Does that make sense? Hayley: So, even though it wasn't that brew, I'd still met him by going through that whole thing. Hayley: So I knew that he was nice and inspirational and had a lot that he could teach me. Hayley: I knew that siren were doing a lot of new beers, so I knew that the year before I joined, they'd done like, 100 new beers in a year, which for me was just completely unheard of. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): That's a rate of new beers, isn't it? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Just crazy, because at full age, you might do one new beer a month. Hayley: It's like a monthly special, that kind of thing. Hayley: And that was like big, kind of. Hayley: Oh, something new. Hayley: So to do two a week was just, in my mind, mind blowing. Hayley: Like, how can they do this? Hayley: How do they have so many ideas? Hayley: This is not doable. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): And probably the range of beers that siren are working with is much bigger than a traditional family brewer's range of recipes. Hayley: Exactly, yeah. Hayley: Although at that point, I hadn't been to see it. Hayley: I'd read things about bits of kit that they had, people had mentioned things like the spin bot, like, what is this spin bot thing? Hayley: And this other thing for me was, in Covid times, breweries were going under, but they weren't, they were doing well. Hayley: So thinking, well, that takes something to be not a massive brewing medium and to not be suffering, to be somehow making their way through it and making the best of it. Hayley: So I thought, you know what? Hayley: I'm going to give this a go. Hayley: And I applied for the job, but sort of thought I probably wouldn't get it, because I think, in my mind, I didn't know the experience of brewers within the area who would apply. Hayley: But I. Hayley: I think I just assumed that because I only had the one brewery's worth of experience, that other people would have loads of different stuff, and so they would pick those people. Rob (Host): It's funny how our brains do that, isn't it? Rob (Host): You can be super qualified and have all this really relevant experience, but your brain goes, oh, no, it won't be you. Hayley: Yes, exactly. Hayley: And I was like, thinking, they probably won't. Hayley: There'll be probably a good few people that have got loads of experience from loads of different breweries. Hayley: But when they interviewed me, I remember after the interview thinking, wait, hang on, I've barely answered any questions about myself. Hayley: This was more like some sort of full of fact finding mission. Hayley: It was really weird. Hayley: They were so keen to find out, and what do you do, like, day to day and what's it like and what's the brew like? Hayley: And so I sort of got to the end of the interview thinking, wait, I've not answered any of the. Hayley: Like, what are your strengths? Hayley: I've not answered any of those. Hayley: They haven't asked me anything. Hayley: They've just asked me all about what I do. Hayley: But then I realize, actually, if you really are interested in, is somebody going to be able to pick this job up and do it, then, of course they ask you about what you actually do day to day, what your experience really is, not. Hayley: If you could be an animal, what would you be? Hayley: That doesn't actually help anyone. Hayley: Why do interviewers even ask that question? Hayley: Luckily got the job and it wasn't long till I started, but it was just totally different. Hayley: Totally different, the feel of the place. Hayley: So Fullers is, I think a lot of people at Fullers, you've probably heard this before, you have that feeling of like you're standing on the shoulders of giants. Hayley: You heard that before. Hayley: It really feels that way, like, as though somehow you can't do anything wrong because you're already at the top of a mountain where everything's awesome. Hayley: Somehow you haven't really had to try very hard. Hayley: Somebody has thrust you up to the top and you're just, like, doing as you're told and it does the perfect job every time to then be thrust into this completely different environment where the person that's been there the longest had only been there seven years. Hayley: So I'd been a brewer for longer than Byron had existed. Rob (Host): So I was like, yeah, that says it all. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Everyone was sort of so relatively new to it, to siren, anyway. Hayley: Obviously they had their backstories and previous roles and stuff, but it was so refreshing. Hayley: There was nobody. Hayley: It was weird because at Fullers, I was one of the youngest, even when I left, and when I joined Siren, I was one of the oldest. Hayley: So that was like a sudden, like, whoa. Hayley: Like young people. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And not, like, just a bit younger, like ten years younger. Hayley: So I was like, wow, this is actually really cool. Hayley: I've actually got knowledge and experience I can pass to other people rather than just constantly trying to soak stuff up. Hayley: That was really nice. Hayley: But, yeah, the atmosphere, like, there was music on. Hayley: I went in and their music was blasting through the brewery and I was like, whoa. Hayley: How can you even hear each other? Hayley: This is crazy. Hayley: But it just gives that atmosphere of, like, everyone's friendly and chatting and having. Rob (Host): A laugh of a party, isn't it? Hayley: Yeah, and it is. Hayley: And it's like you're just hanging out with your mates and you just happen to make beer on site, but having a laugh the whole time. Rob (Host): That's cool. Rob (Host): Who's deciding the playlist for that? Hayley: Oh, so this is the thing. Hayley: Whoever is on the brew deck gets to choose what's on the sound system. Rob (Host): So they're the dj. Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Hayley: And we all have completely different tastes. Hayley: The only thing that everybody has in common is that when I'm on the brew deck, they're like, oh, no. Hayley: Oh, it's her again. Hayley: Oh, she's got that horrible music. Hayley: Because I have the worst for then, basically just like 90s cheesy pop. Hayley: Yeah, I love it. Hayley: I love the music that I can just sing along to without having to think about it, because it's almost with the brewing. Hayley: Once you're used to the brewing and you've got the music on that your brain just naturally sings to, you can just sort of do both. Hayley: Whereas if somebody else's music's on while I'm trying to do something, I find it quite jarring. Hayley: You kind of find yourself thinking, what was that lyric? Hayley: What did she just say? Hayley: Or whatever, but everyone's different. Hayley: You'd have anything from my cheesy rubbish to metal throat music. Hayley: But I mean, I had no idea that was even a thing. Hayley: Yeah, but I just came into the brewery one day and there's just all these, like. Rob (Host): The machine needs oiling. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So there's that. Hayley: I can't even remember what the other music is called. Hayley: Sometimes I just don't class it as music. Hayley: Sounds like shouting or something to me. Hayley: I don't know what it is. Rob (Host): Fair enough. Hayley: But, yeah, it's whoever is on the brewer. Rob (Host): That's right. Rob (Host): It's not like picked on. Rob (Host): If you're brewing a stout, bring some darker music. Hayley: No sessions? Hayley: No. Hayley: But I do have a belief that it's really important what music you're playing when you're brewing. Hayley: It wasn't me that came up with this. Hayley: One of my favorite brewers told me once that it's really, really important that you play the right music to the beer, because that's what will make the beer happy. Hayley: And it will brew correctly if you play it the right beer, the right music. Hayley: I can't be sure that the beer likes 90s cheesy pop, but it comes out right. Hayley: Maybe it does. Rob (Host): I think it makes you happy. Rob (Host): You make better beer. Rob (Host): Prince Charles. Rob (Host): King Charles. Rob (Host): Now is he was talking to plants to make them healthier and happier and everything like that. Rob (Host): I think there's something in there. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): It just boosts the morale of everyone brewing, doesn't it? Rob (Host): Depending on whose music it is. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And your singing voice. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): You have to record that on the brew sheet, though, of what was any effect on the outcome? Hayley: I've never actually thought of doing that. Hayley: Maybe I will see if it changes the beers. Rob (Host): What were the differences that you saw between Fuller's and siren? Rob (Host): I'm sure there are many, but what were the key ones that stuck out for you? Hayley: I guess obviously there's the things like size and stuff like that, but there was just mentality differences that I wasn't expecting. Hayley: I just thought. Hayley: I thought all breweries were run the same, like to time and strictly and that sort of thing. Hayley: And I remember on my first day, obviously being struck by the music first and thinking, okay, that's not quite the same. Hayley: But also, I remember at one point, Sean was showing me how the day was run and things, and one of the brewers, he was in the office, but he came running out from the office and he was just like shouting at the top of his voice. Hayley: I couldn't even make out what he was saying. Hayley: And both me and Sean thinking, oh, my God, something's gone terribly wrong. Hayley: And he ran over to the brew deck and I'm thinking, what is he telling this brewer? Hayley: It must be that something's going wrong and he has to stop off something. Hayley: And Sean was saying, like, oh, what's wrong? Hayley: Why are you shouting? Hayley: He's like, oh, no, nothing's wrong. Hayley: Okay, well, we shout about what's going on, and he's like, oh, the sandwich man's here. Hayley: I don't want him to miss the sandwich man. Hayley: So it was just like that kind of thing. Hayley: It was a totally different way of working. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And they have a WhatsApp group that it'll come up in your WhatsApp group sandwich masks shouting, yeah, or like, when the ice cream man comes or something, it's like, ice cream man and stuff like that. Rob (Host): The work stops. Hayley: It's that kind of thing. Hayley: The atmosphere is different. Hayley: The way that the beer is thought about is different because you haven't got fixed ways of doing stuff. Hayley: It's a constant learning cycle for all of us, and it might be that we are learning from Sean, or some of the brewers are learning from other brewers, depending on what experience we've got, or we're collaborating and we're learning from that brewery, or somebody somewhere in the world come up with a new technique and they've done a podcast about it, and it's like, oh, I listen to this podcast and this guy's doing this. Hayley: So, yeah, let's try it. Hayley: And that kind of thing. Rob (Host): There's a bit more innovation waiting on there. Rob (Host): Sort of bound by being on the shoulders of giants. Hayley: Exactly, yeah. Hayley: There isn't as much expectation that all your beers should be the same. Hayley: It's actually more of an expectation that all beers should be different, but somehow. Rob (Host): Firing and commercial, you've still got to be able to sell the beer. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): As long as you can fit it within that framework. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: There's a lot more sort of excitement around what are the beers and what are we putting in this one and all of the different ingredients and things like that. Hayley: I remember the first time that I made a beer with fruit in it at siren, and I hadn't done that at fullert, and I drunk beers with fruit in, but I didn't realize quite how much fruit you have got to stuff into a beer to make it fruity. Hayley: And, yeah, I was part of this day of adding all this mango to a beer, and it just was, like, never ending. Hayley: Just this constant trail of people with, like, we have, like, 20 kilo like, bags of mango puree. Hayley: And it was just constant, like, shovel it. Hayley: Just keep going, keep going. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I remember the beer that we made had, like, 1.2 tons of mango puree in it. Hayley: That was added by hand. Rob (Host): Oh, my God. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And on that day, I was like, well, that's how much mango you need to shove in a beer. Rob (Host): Until then, you don't ever know. Hayley: But no. Rob (Host): What point did they work out? Rob (Host): It was 1.2 tons and, like, half of that. Hayley: Well, because they'd learned from somebody else. Hayley: So this is the thing. Hayley: So the first time they did that beer, it was a collaboration with somebody that had done that before. Hayley: And so that's where that kind of brewing is different. Hayley: And you get to see the friendliness of the industry so much more because everybody just works together all of the time. Hayley: Of course, breweries are technically competitors, but the brewers within the breweries are not. Hayley: We are not competitors with each other. Hayley: We are all friends. Hayley: And we just like to chat about beer and make good beer and figure out how that guy did something cool. Hayley: And if you do something cool, you're not like, my secret, my precious. Hayley: Most people are, like, shouting it from the roof, like, I've done this. Hayley: You will easily sort of learn about something. Hayley: And it's like that. Hayley: We recently brewed some of our very first. Hayley: No. Hayley: And low alcohol beers. Hayley: We'd never done that before. Hayley: We didn't know what we were doing. Hayley: But just like, through collaboration, you learn. Hayley: And I think it's amazing how people can sometimes spend years perfecting new techniques for stuff, but then they'll quite happily come to your brewery and go, oh, well, this is how I do it. Rob (Host): These are the exact steps I reasons why there's no concerns about. Rob (Host): I'm sure there are areas they protect, but there's no concerns, generally, about intellectual property. Hayley: No. Rob (Host): Have it on another brewery. Hayley: No. Hayley: And it's amazing. Hayley: It's like people share magic tricks with you or something. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): Especially with alcohol free beer, because there's such arts and a science, obviously, but to making a really good one of those that you're really happy to have as part of your evening, as an alternative, those sorts of things. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): And we all know the beers you have, and we won't name them, but where they don't taste like that. Rob (Host): And it's not like, not a good experience. Hayley: No, exactly. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So we did our first two low alcohol beers through collaboration. Rob (Host): That with mash gang. Hayley: Yeah, with mash gang, exactly. Hayley: And the amount that you can learn, basically, in two days, one day for each brew. Hayley: Yeah, it was incredible. Hayley: And I think the thing is, it's the passion that comes from people that have perfected these things. Hayley: It just exudes out of them and you can't help but just be sort of in awe of them, just listening, like, give me another knowledge. Hayley: Yeah, but they don't mind at all. Hayley: And I think that's one of the things I love about other brewers. Hayley: Often they either don't realize quite how much knowledge they have that they can give to others or they're just so humble, they don't mind. Hayley: They will just tell you anything. Rob (Host): It's a lovely place to be a thing. Rob (Host): I might flip that around to you, though, because you must have brought some knowledge and skills and experience from fullers for siren. Rob (Host): That's probably able to be put to really good use. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So before I joined, Siren hadn't really done many sort of more traditional styles. Hayley: I'd say they were more known for their ipas and the stouts, that kind of thing. Hayley: Definitely the stouts. Hayley: But when I joined, one of the first beers that I worked on and was part of the recipe on was an ESB. Hayley: Perfect. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So obviously I knew what I was doing, but it was, of course, a siren twist. Hayley: So it was a coffee ESB because they were doing a project, it was called the Barista Project, and they made several different beers to show how coffee could be used to make variety of different beers, not just al's, for example. Hayley: So going on from that, siren then bought their own pub. Hayley: So the first ever pub and they were selling somebody else's bitter because we didn't have one. Hayley: And although I can't take credit for the whole recipe, I had my involvement within the recipe for Siren's first ever bitter that then we got into the pub and now we don't have to use somebody else's. Rob (Host): People expect that. Hayley: Well, exactly. Hayley: And the thing is, whenever I'm in a pub like that, if it's not sort of like here, obviously, everyone would always just say, oh, can I have a pride? Hayley: Because that's the obvious beer that you would pick. Hayley: A lot of people don't actually ask for the branded beer, they'll just say, can I have a bitter? Hayley: And so it wouldn't in that case matter if you were giving them a bitter you'd had to buy or one you were brewing. Hayley: That's it. Hayley: But I actually really like our bitter, so, yeah. Hayley: Memento, if you ever want to try. Rob (Host): It, I hope you're enjoying our chat. Rob (Host): And if you like what you're hearing, there are a few things you can do that really help us out and help other people find the podcast, follow or subscribe to we are beer people. Rob (Host): Wherever you get your podcasts and leave a review or rating or share the episode on your socials or even in actual real life. Rob (Host): And if you want to stay up to date with all things we are beer people. Rob (Host): You can visit our website at Wearebeerpeople co. Rob (Host): UK where you can sign up for a monthly newsletter and you can follow us on social media at we are beerpeople and if you have any questions or comments or want to hear from any beer people, then pop me a message. Rob (Host): Now back to the podcast. Rob (Host): And what would I guess a typical day's or weeks kind of brewing look like for you nowadays? Hayley: A week in brewing. Hayley: So it's shifts again, similar to fullers, but the shift hours are slightly different. Hayley: But you've still got an early brewer and a late brewer. Hayley: They just have the one mash ton and one kettle. Hayley: So no party dialing or anything like that. Hayley: But they have a three tank system. Hayley: So this was another thing I had to get used to. Hayley: So where Fullers had what they call a copper whirlpool siren, have got a kettle and a separate whirlpool. Hayley: And that helps with hop additions and stuff like that because you can go from the kettle via a heat exchanger, cool the work down, and then add the hops at a cooler temperature. Hayley: So you get less bitterness from those hops and more aroma. Hayley: And it's a really cool technique that you couldn't really do, like at fullers, for example. Hayley: So in a day, you'd start off the same in that you start off by mashing in for three of the days we do three mashes a day, and for two of the days you'd either do two mashes or a mash and a clean. Hayley: So the early brewer will actually mash in all three beers. Hayley: So they'll mash in the first one, run that all the way through the kit into the FB. Hayley: Meanwhile, they, halfway through that process will have started mashing in the second brew. Hayley: So they'll be looking after the first beer in the ketle, meanwhile mashing in the second beer into the mash tun. Hayley: They'll move the first beer from the ketle to the whirlpool and into the FB, meanwhile moving the second beer into the kettle. Hayley: Once that's in the ketle, start mashing the third beer. Hayley: And at that point, that's when the late brewer turns up and you go phew. Hayley: And hand it all over, being a flight controller. Hayley: Oh, yeah. Rob (Host): That's parked there for now, but obviously need to bring that out. Hayley: Yeah, it's a lot. Hayley: Especially because the kit is sort of half manual, half automated, and the brew deck itself is up some steps and all of the pipelet is underneath the deck. Hayley: So when I was first learning, I couldn't get my head around where all the pipe work went from all of the different times. Rob (Host): Just a jumbo of spaghetti. Hayley: Yeah, just loads of pipe work. Hayley: I was just sort of like, they. Rob (Host): Could have made it really simple, but they've just filled. Hayley: They just made it do loop de loop. Rob (Host): This one just connects back to itself for no reason. Hayley: So you'd be balancing all of those processes, but also doing things like cleaning the heatx, pitching the yeast. Hayley: So if you're doing three different brews, the early brewer would pitch the first brew and the late brewer would pitch the second two brews. Hayley: But then also you've got in between that, you've got to dig out the mash ton. Hayley: So the early brewer would do two of the digging out the mash ton, often with the help of a brewery assistant, thankfully. Hayley: Because if you've got one brew boiling away in the ketle and a few of the processes going on, and you've also then got to mash out, which is sort of not completely manual. Hayley: There's an arm that pushes the mash out of the door, but you've still got to dig the mash sort of into the back of a skip. Hayley: You can't just allow it to drop in. Hayley: So just drop in one pile and then overflow. Hayley: And it takes about three skips worth to empty the mash ton. Hayley: So then you've got to get on the forks and take the skip outside. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): So you've got to be rising it as well. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And empty it into the farmers trailer. Hayley: So there's loads of things going on. Hayley: And then at the same time, you've got to be milling in the next brew in a similar way to Fuller's, where you've got all of these things in your head at the same time. Hayley: It's like that. Hayley: It's just that the processes that you are involved in as a brewer are spread out more. Hayley: So at fullers, you wouldn't be milling and pitching yeast and brewing and mashing out, you'd be concentrating on the brew. Hayley: So that, for me, was quite like, my gosh, how am I going to be in all of these places all at the same time? Hayley: But, yeah, you get used to that. Hayley: And then the late brew carries on from there. Hayley: So you've got do the last brew, get that into the FB and then do the cleans and that sort of thing. Hayley: And you do it on rotation. Hayley: So you would do, say, a week of early brewing and then a week of early seller, then a week of late brewing, then a week of late seller and rotate. Rob (Host): Okay. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So there's four brewers and we all rotate around those different shifts. Hayley: I remember at first it seemed like it took so long to get back to the original shift that you were on that I felt like I'd forgot what I was doing because it was kind of almost like a month in between. Rob (Host): You're doing totally different things in those sort of by week, aren't you? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So it kind of took me quite a while to understand what I was doing, because I was doing something different each week. Hayley: So, yeah, the other side of it is doing the sellering, which again, is different because at fullers, the brewers did the brew and you had operators that did the celery. Hayley: So it's totally different jobs, whereas at siren it's all either done by a brewer or an assistant. Hayley: So it's really, really varied, which is good, because I think it stops you from getting into a rut or a routine. Rob (Host): Yeah, definitely. Rob (Host): You mentioned you obviously like happy places, learning and developing and all that. Rob (Host): So if you can be doing that, I guess, at a comfortable pace. Rob (Host): So it's not like overwhelming. Rob (Host): I think that's a really good thing to do. Hayley: Yes. Hayley: And sometimes you can get into just the right pattern of shifts where you brew the beer, then you follow it through fermentation, then you centrifuge that beer and you follow it through till it gets packaged. Hayley: So it's really quite nice. Hayley: You sort of see it at the end, especially if it is a beer that you're really keen to see. Hayley: What did it turn out like at siren? Hayley: One of the things that's really unique about them is the way that they run the centrifuge. Hayley: So where some breweries will have specifications for the centrifuge. Hayley: So this beer, run it at this speed, this many hectilities an hour, and that's just fixed. Hayley: It isn't done like that. Hayley: Asylum, because so many of the beers are like a one off beer. Hayley: The centrifuge is run by taste. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So you start doing the transfer. Hayley: First of all, do all your checks to make sure you're not getting oxygen pickup or anything like that. Hayley: So make sure the beer is safe. Hayley: And then you basically just get your pint glass out and start trying it. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So you'll take with others. Hayley: So you might get the head brewer, or you might get the team lead, another brewer, other people to come over, and you'll all try this beer together. Hayley: And you start at, say, 50 hectiliters an hour, and then you start speeding up and you taste and smell what the differences are in that beer as you're going quicker. Hayley: So it might be that if you're doing some sort of east coast ipa, you might get more soft, fruity notes through, and you might have a nicer mouthfeel as you speed up. Hayley: So you might choose a faster speed, but it might be for a west coast that you want that real crisp clarity. Hayley: And as you speed up, it's a bit cloudy, so you go slower again. Hayley: So stuff like that. Hayley: With a stout, you might want more mouthfeel, so you might go faster. Rob (Host): Is that the main effect of a centrifuge, just to get rid of the particulates and stuff inside it? Rob (Host): And that could be hops or yeast or stuff? Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So definitely to take out yeast, because you don't want to be getting yeast in the tins, the cans, but also to take out particulate hops that are still floating around in there. Hayley: Nobody really wants to drink a tin and have bits of hop in it, so, of course, you have to make sure that you're hitting specifications of clarity and things like that. Hayley: You can't just go wild and let any old think through. Hayley: But within the boundaries of what is this style of beer and what are sirens sort of specifications as far as making the beer clean, within that, there's a lot of scope for. Hayley: Well, at this speed, it's softer, but at this speed, it's more bitter. Hayley: And at this speed, I'm getting more fruit through, and at this speed, I can taste more coffee and look all sorts of different. Rob (Host): How brewers would love it as well, because it's another dial you can play around with. Hayley: Exactly. Rob (Host): Is that what the spin bot is? Rob (Host): Is it a centrifuge or is that something else? Hayley: No. Rob (Host): This was the centrifuge. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Spin bot is a whole different beast. Hayley: He's really cool. Hayley: The spin bot gets connected to an fe, and essentially it's like a mini tank, and you can put not anything in there, but anything that you would want to impart flavor into the beer, you can put into the spin box. Hayley: So that might be cacao nibs, it might be wooden spirals from barrels, it could be vanilla pods, all sorts of things, chilies, anything where you think that could impart a nice flavor into the beer. Hayley: You could find a way to put it within the spin box. Hayley: So it might be in, like, a filter bag that you put the ingredients in and then tie up at the top and tie to the inside of the spin box so that it's sort of hanging, or there's sort of a false bottom in the spin box, so you can just put stuff on it. Hayley: So, like, the spirals, you can just throw loads in. Hayley: And we use all sorts of different wooden spirals, depending on what kind of flavor we're going for. Hayley: Or it might be coffee beans. Hayley: Loads of stuff. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And then you connect with hoses to the fe. Hayley: The beer comes out. Hayley: The fe, through tangential inputs to the spin bot, essentially sort of spins around the ingredients that are in there and then goes back out the spin bot into the fe. Hayley: And that process is on continuously. Hayley: So there's a pump pumping it continuously. Hayley: So the idea is that where you might, say, soak something within a beer or put a beer in a barrel or something like that, you're getting the same sort of effect, but quickly because. Rob (Host): You'Re maximizing the contacts. Hayley: That's it. Hayley: Contact time. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And the more that you're able to keep refreshing the beer that's getting into contact with all of these different ingredients, the more that you're extracting those flavors and getting that into the beer. Hayley: But it's also a lot more controllable because you can continuously taste the beer. Rob (Host): You can never go back on that, can you? Hayley: Yeah, you can't go back. Rob (Host): You need to sort of do that. Hayley: Gingerly, but you practice it a lot. Hayley: And Sean's really good at it because he's obviously done it a lot now. Hayley: And so he's teaching us, and he'll often be tasting whichever tank is connected to the spin bot, and he'll say, oh, come and taste this. Hayley: What do you think of this? Hayley: Can you taste the wood? Hayley: Can you taste this? Hayley: And gets quite excited about, yeah, this is right now we call it pushing it back. Hayley: Push the spin bot back. Hayley: It's essentially where you push all of the beer that's currently in the spin bot back into the fb. Hayley: Got you. Hayley: And that's, like, the end of the process. Hayley: And then it's take all of the ingredients out. Hayley: Spinbot, clean it and stuff. Hayley: I try to rescue quite a lot of it, especially, like, the wooden spirals. Hayley: So these spirals might be, say, from a whiskey barrel, for example. Hayley: Then they've been soaked in one of our stouts or something like that. Hayley: So then they're actually really interesting in themselves. Hayley: So I'll take a bag of them home. Hayley: So I have a smoker at home. Rob (Host): Oh, brilliant. Rob (Host): Yeah. Hayley: I use the spirals as my smoking would. Hayley: And one of my favorite things to do is when. Hayley: So, you know, we make caribbean chocolate cake. Hayley: One of the iterations of that was called mole. Hayley: So it was like, had chilies in it and stuff. Hayley: So I took the wooden spirals out of the spin bot once we made that beer, I took the chilies that had been in the spinbot with that beer. Hayley: I took cans of that beer. Hayley: I got a nice fresh brisket from the butcher, smoked the brisket with the spirals and then put that brisket with the chilies that have been soaked in the beer and a tin of the beer and made a massive big chili with it. Hayley: And it was like, incredible. Hayley: It was the best chili I've ever had. Hayley: And every time I edit it, I wish I'd made, like, gallons of. Rob (Host): Yeah, you definitely made everyone very hungry. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I hope people listen to this. Rob (Host): You brought spirals, right? Hayley: Haven't you? Hayley: Hoping they can just go home and eat dinner quick. Rob (Host): Oh, brilliant. Rob (Host): That's really cool. Rob (Host): And that made me think. Rob (Host): So you've recently done siren's kind of maiden blending as. Hayley: Oh, yeah. Hayley: So as we talked now, it was last week. Rob (Host): Yeah. Hayley: And I've only actually done it once before because it's normally the week that they plan it in is normally the same day as my husband's birthday. Hayley: So I kept missing it because I kept being off because we'd, like, go on holiday or something. Hayley: But this year they put it a week earlier. Hayley: So I was able to go. Hayley: And it doesn't experience, like no other the amount of really strong, like, well, it's Bali wine that you're drinking in the day starting at half ten in the morning. Hayley: It's just mad. Hayley: But I'll tell you what got me this time was when we were comparing how does the beer smell to how does it taste? Hayley: As we went through different barrels of beer that had been matured for different amounts of time, some of the smells that you would get from it. Hayley: So I remember one of them, I smelt it and I was just like, oh, it smells like chocolate. Hayley: This is amazing. Hayley: This smells so good. Hayley: And everyone else is smelling, oh, yeah, chocolate. Hayley: And the idea was like, you would go through different samples of beer and write down which ones were your favorites. Hayley: So I start writing down, like, yeah, great chocolate. Hayley: Brilliant. Hayley: I want this in my blend kind of thing. Hayley: But then when we tasted it. Hayley: No chocolate. Hayley: Totally different. Rob (Host): Wow. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: But that happened quite often. Hayley: You would smell it and get certain notes, especially if it was. Hayley: You'd get like sort of notes of the barrel or of whatever liquor that had been in that barrel. Hayley: But when you drank it, it was a totally different experience. Hayley: And I think some of the barrels complement what the beer already tastes like and almost just bring those flavors out more. Hayley: But some of the barrels. Hayley: So for example, for me, some of the tequila barrels made the beer taste so different to what its original state was that in one respect you thought, well, how is this going to work as a blend? Hayley: It doesn't taste like maiden, but those are the beers or blends barrels that give each maiden such a unique taste. Hayley: Because it might be that the maiden comes from six different types of barrels. Hayley: And the fact that you've got one in there that's got that slight tweak of an OD like tequila taste or something that really makes it zing or pop. Hayley: So it was that. Hayley: That was like really interesting. Rob (Host): It's really cool. Rob (Host): It's kind of like the think of the grain bill that goes in. Rob (Host): You might have like 80%, I don't know, 70? Rob (Host): 80% is just pale mold. Rob (Host): And you're not going to add in 90% of chocolate mold or anything like that, are you? Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): But if you didn't have that in certain beers, it wouldn't be a London pride, for instance. Hayley: Yeah, that's it. Hayley: It's always a really interesting day. Hayley: Especially because you work in teams and the whole company gets involved. Rob (Host): It's almost like an away day. Hayley: Yeah, it is an away day. Rob (Host): Working day. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: It's just an excuse to drink loads of barley wine. Rob (Host): I'm guessing there's no brewing taking place on that day. Hayley: No, no brewing takes place on that. Hayley: We do start a bit early and do some sellering, but we don't brew. Hayley: On my table, for example, there was me, there was the lady that works in the lab. Hayley: We had some guests. Hayley: There was people from sales, marketing, finance. Hayley: So everybody just gets kind of. Hayley: And it's done on purpose. Hayley: Every table or team is like that. Rob (Host): It's got nice spreads. Rob (Host): No group thing happening there. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And you all sort of, I suppose, see the beer in a different way and. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: Just to have that day where everybody mingles together, especially because teams change over the years and you might not have got a chance to speak to that person that works in a different department to you. Hayley: So getting to know them and stuff, it's, I think as much about the social aspect of siren, as a huge family team as it is about making. Rob (Host): This blend, it's such a big thing, though. Rob (Host): So maiden, just going back, it was the first beer that siren ever brewed. Hayley: Yes. Rob (Host): And now you brew it every year. Rob (Host): So it's a real tradition thing. Rob (Host): And something that is being built year on year on year, where you're able to take different blends and see what's happened in the barrels, what magic has taken place and where you're going to go this year. Rob (Host): And I guess you don't know until you do that blending session what this year is going to be like. Hayley: No, you're exactly right. Hayley: So it was the first beer that siren ever brewed, which I think just shows you what siren are at. Hayley: Their know, they didn't sort of go, right, you know what? Hayley: Let's start with an IPA. Hayley: They were like, no, we're going to smack in this massive barley wine and also we're going to store loads of it in barrels. Rob (Host): And not even just straight from the off. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): Make a really big gamble in a way, isn't it? Rob (Host): As a brewery starting out, we're going to be here in a year and two years and three years to sell it again. Hayley: That's it. Hayley: It's a massive gamble. Hayley: But it was done on purpose to show we are here to take the risk that other people might not take and to strive forward in ways that other people might not. Hayley: And that first beer showed that. Hayley: So now, coming in partway through siren's story and being able to work with the beers in barrels that their brewers at the beginning brewed is quite magical, to be honest, because especially they do this Solaro effect where they never empty a barrel. Rob (Host): Sort of pour in, pour out, isn't it? Rob (Host): You've constantly got some of the original. Rob (Host): Almost like a mother dough or. Hayley: Exactly. Hayley: So you know that each of those barrels has a little tiny bit of the original brew in it, which is special. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): You talked earlier about being in a place where there were people younger than you, and then that's been a new experience. Rob (Host): And you talked as well about you sort of wanting to learn and develop. Rob (Host): Have you also looked at learning and developing other people as well and helping pass on some of your wisdom over the years? Hayley: Oh, yeah, definitely. Hayley: So one of our brewery assistants just recently did his brewing certificate and so I still had my notes from my certificate and so I was able to sort of lend him a hand and lend him the notes and if he had questions, take him through different things. Hayley: So that was actually really nice to be in that position. Hayley: Where I don't know everything, no brewer does. Hayley: But to know enough that you can instill that knowledge into somebody else is so rewarding. Hayley: To make that loop, in some ways makes it even more worthwhile that you've done it, because you're opening up avenues for somebody else to then either follow in similar footsteps to you, or go off and do their own thing. Hayley: But with your sort of nudge, it sort of feels similar to how other people nudged me along. Hayley: Now I can nudge others along and encourage them and stuff. Rob (Host): I think you're nudging people along, but from the sounds of what you're saying, and the brewers Congress, you're also opening the doors for people as well, and helping to make it easier for people to come into brewing. Hayley: Yeah, I'm trying. Hayley: I think I probably see differently to how people have traditionally seen brewing. Hayley: And brewing has been done the same for centuries. Hayley: It has always been a manual job. Hayley: And for me, although I would not want to take away from that sense of the closeness to the ingredients and that manual side of it, because that's what's fun about brewing. Hayley: I do think that in order to let more people into the industry and to open it up to people that aren't weightlifters, you need to move with the times in some respects. Hayley: So, for me, as I was getting into brewing, because I sort of came at it backwards, I was so far invested and into wanting to be a brewer. Hayley: By the time I got to the things that were difficult, that I was just determined to overcome it anyway. Hayley: So when I got to the point where I needed to somehow learn how to lift 25 kilosacks over and over and over again, I found it really hard, but was like, I've got to get through this. Hayley: I will not have gone through all of these years of what I've done so far, and the education and the effort and everything that I've put into it, to be knocked down by a 25 kilo sack, this will not happen. Hayley: I will somehow get through this. Hayley: And I had some professional training in manual handling, that sort of thing. Hayley: But I just think when you look at other industries that are similar to ours, so manufacturing of food, for example, it's a similar idea. Hayley: But say if you go to a factory where they make bread, they need mass quantities of things like flour. Hayley: There are not people wandering around with 25 kilosats of flour. Hayley: They're not. Rob (Host): That is really not. Hayley: Yeah, they have come up with ways of automating those things so that those jobs are open to anybody. Hayley: And again, it's not that I want to take away from the essence of brewing and being within the ingredients and really get to know them. Hayley: I just think that there's so many people out there, especially that I've spoken to, that want to get into the industry, but either they're worried that they won't be able to physically do it, so just never apply, just don't get into it, or they get put off by the application process. Hayley: So if you go away now and search for a brewer's role, I can guarantee you at least half of the jobs that you'll read it will say on must be able to lift 25 kilos consecutively. Hayley: Right. Hayley: And a lot of people will just think, don't think I can do that. Hayley: I won't apply. Hayley: And it's like there is so much passion and knowledge within these people, yet they are just brought down by this one phrase that says, well, because you're not a weightlifter, sorry, we don't want you. Hayley: And it infuriates me. Hayley: I think if more breweries just didn't write that bit and just tried to see who applied for those roles, and if the person that comes to that role has everything that you want in this amazing, but for whatever reason, is not going to be able to consecutively lift God knows what, work with that person to find a solution, instead of just immediately saying, no, we don't want you. Hayley: Because ultimately, if that person comes to your brewing, you find a solution. Hayley: You haven't found a solution for that person. Hayley: You found a solution for your whole brewery forever. Hayley: So you're investing in your company as a whole and the future of the people that work there. Hayley: So, yeah, if I could change the industry in one way, it would be to remove physical barriers for people, because I think we've made so much progress. Hayley: I'm not saying it's perfect, but we've made a lot of progress in breaking down barriers as far as the language around brewing, and especially sort of how women and other minority people are seen within brewing. Hayley: So if we could now get to a point where we also break down the barriers that physically stop people. Hayley: For me, I talk to so many women. Hayley: I think there's a genuine belief that we need to encourage women into brewing, but we don't. Hayley: They are out there. Hayley: There are millions of them. Hayley: So many women want to brew, love the idea of it, but get stuck at the point where they think I won't be good enough, terrible place to. Rob (Host): Be in for the sake of 25 kilogram bags, that's it. Rob (Host): For some reason, an industry standard, and as you say, that's been overcome in other industries, but not wholesale in brewing. Rob (Host): Yeah, I heard you had an example of wade come up with ways to kind of help move around 25 kilogram sacks of grain and all that. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So this is actually in the pilot brewery at Fullers. Hayley: I'd struggled with the malt sacks when I was one of the brewing assistants, but because it wasn't always my job, I sort of just struggled through it each time. Hayley: It was my role. Hayley: And then, okay, you don't have to do that for a while. Hayley: But then when I was on the pilot kit, not only was it always going to be my job, and there was no silos, so all of it was going to be sack malt. Hayley: And the mill was up some steps. Hayley: I was just like, I'm not going to be able to do this. Hayley: This is not safe. Hayley: There is no way I can carry something that's at least half my size and comparative to my weight, like, over a third of my own weight, up some steps safely and not fall over. Hayley: So, as small as that seemed as a problem compared to everything else, it was the one thing that I couldn't think how I was going to get around it on my own. Hayley: But thankfully, the project engineer, he just could see things totally different to everybody else, and he just saw solutions for things. Hayley: And so one day he came to him and he was like, right, this problem that you've got with the sack mold, explain it to me. Hayley: And, okay, so if the sacks were to just sort of appear above the mill, would that be okay? Hayley: Yeah, if they would just magically appear, fine. Hayley: And then, so the next time we spoke, he said, yeah, I've got it. Hayley: We're going to build you a winch. Hayley: Wow, cool. Hayley: Okay. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And it was as simple as it was just a steel bar that was, like, screwed into the floor, that then had, like, an arm that went over the mill. Hayley: The winch came down to the floor. Hayley: I just poked a hole in the bag, put the winch hook through the hole in the bag, then went up the steps, and I had a little button. Hayley: So I just used to press a button, lift the bag up, and then it was all connected to a rope, but rubber. Hayley: And I would just, like, grab that, pull it along the rail to above the mill. Rob (Host): Then you didn't even have to swing it or anything like that. Hayley: It would just move along the ceiling type of motion. Hayley: And then I just open the bag with my knife while it's still dangling there. Hayley: All the malt goes into the mill magic. Hayley: Easy peasy. Rob (Host): Yeah, that's it. Hayley: Amazing. Hayley: I think once that problem had been solved there and I saw that it could be done, that was then that catalyst of, like, this can be done. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): All of these things can be approached and overcome. Rob (Host): I think, again, it's that example of just having different viewpoints in mind to solve things. Rob (Host): Which, again, is why you want to encourage more people into brewing, because imagine the things that we can achieve. Hayley: Well, that's it. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And I'm sure there are people out there that probably think, oh, well, that's all well and good in your airy fairy dreamland where money's no problem and you can have whatever you like. Hayley: And I understand that. Hayley: I know that things cost money. Hayley: But also, to me, your staff should be your biggest investment. Hayley: And if you're not willing to invest in things that make the job doable more easily for your staff, and if you're willing to be a brewery that has a high staff turnover because they burn out because it's too physically difficult, well, I think you're just losing out because a high staff turnover never makes a great brewery. Hayley: You never have the passion for the beer or the brand. Hayley: So surely it's worth the investment in the things that make the job enjoyable and less physically difficult to do. Hayley: No brewer is ever going to go like, I just want the whole thing to be completely automated. Hayley: Well, maybe some brewers do, but I mean, most brewers will always want to be involved with the ingredients. Hayley: Be able to touch it, feel it, smell it, eat it. Rob (Host): There's ways of doing it, isn't it? Rob (Host): You can still be involved, but you take off the strain. Hayley: Exactly. Rob (Host): Yeah, I think here to all of that. Rob (Host): So I'm going to now turn to the subject of beer and probably put you on the spot and ask you to name your favorite beers. Rob (Host): But I'll let you pick from Fuller's and then from siren. Hayley: So what are your favorite of each of those? Rob (Host): And then maybe we can go to outside of those. Rob (Host): Okay, three beers you've got. Hayley: So fuller's beers. Hayley: I would have to say 1845. Hayley: And it's for two key reasons. Hayley: One reason is because I make the family Christmas cake every year with my grandma's old recipe book. Hayley: And every year I eat some Christmas cake with 1845 because I just think the pairing is amazing that those tastes just go together so well, especially on a cold day. Hayley: Fire. Hayley: Really luscious Christmas cake. Hayley: Really luscious beer. Hayley: Amazing. Hayley: But also because it's bottle conditioned. Hayley: So I love to save them over the years and then go back and how is that one tasting? Hayley: Because sometimes you might taste an 1845 that's, say, five years old or so, and it's just transformed into something that you're just like, wow, this is amazing. Hayley: And it's just because it's conditioned for that bit longer. Hayley: So that's a super special beer for me. Hayley: And then siren is my favorite beer is something completely different to something else. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: So it's a beer called Uncle Zester. Hayley: You know, it. Hayley: It has loads and loads and loads of honey in it. Hayley: And it's sort of somewhere between a sour and a slightly sweet sort of pale ale. Hayley: I've never tasted a beer like it. Hayley: It is so unique. Hayley: And the first time I had it, I'd only managed to get the one tin because I'd only just started. Hayley: And we recently remade it. Hayley: And I was so excited. Hayley: I actually brewed it. Hayley: And I was. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I was like, oh, my God, I get to brew it. Hayley: This is amazing. Hayley: And so much honey goes into it. Hayley: And it was actually really cool because Sean, like, the head brewer himself, actually helped me get all of the honey into the kettle. Hayley: It wasn't know, oh, no, I'm too far up the chain for that. Hayley: It was like, everybody get involved. Hayley: Let's all get this honey in here. Hayley: So it's a super special brew, and I think it's one that brings everybody together because everybody loves it. Hayley: And I was so excited to share it with people. Hayley: Just like going to all my friends and family, I'll try this beer, and I haven't found one person yet that's gone. Hayley: I don't really get it, don't like it. Hayley: Everybody's like, wow, I think there's something. Rob (Host): For everyone in it. Rob (Host): It might not be what you're expecting to taste or anything like that, but, yeah, it's a better of a beer. Hayley: It is. Hayley: It's amazing. Hayley: So, yeah, that's my current favorite, then. Hayley: My favorite beer is annoyingly a beer that I can't pronounce the name of. Hayley: So in my terrible english way of saying it, it's called duchess de begonia. Hayley: I'm probably pronouncing it really, really badly. Hayley: It's a belgian beer and it's a flemish red. Rob (Host): Oh, nice. Hayley: So it's a sort of sour, sweet type of taste. Hayley: It was my first entry beer into that style, and I think the sort of vintage rodenbacks have a very similar taste. Hayley: But because duchess was my first, almost just, it just holds that special place in my heart. Hayley: And it's something that every time I go to Belgium. Hayley: I go and get the big bottle of it, bring it home with me. Hayley: It's the beer that people get me for Christmas and my birthday. Hayley: And I'll never be disappointed. Rob (Host): You can never have too many of those. Hayley: Exactly. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: I just think it's such a complex and yet simple. Hayley: I don't know how those two things go together. Hayley: How can it be complex and simple at the same time? Hayley: But it's the fact that it's never different. Hayley: It's always how you're expecting it to be. Hayley: Just delicious. Hayley: But the taste is so different as you first taste it, as to when it's in your mouth and then when you swallow it and the smells. Hayley: And I'm just in a whole different world. Rob (Host): Territory of cheese at that point, isn't it? Rob (Host): And it changes over time when it heats up and when your mouth's accustomed with it and all that sort of stuff. Hayley: Exactly, yeah. Hayley: Plastic beer. Rob (Host): Very good. Rob (Host): And how about your favorite place to enjoy a beer? Hayley: I don't necessarily have a favorite place to drink beer. Hayley: I can only go off. Hayley: Where do I have the most memories of enjoying drinking beer? Hayley: And if it was that, I'd say belgium. Hayley: So me and my husband go to Belgium every year. Hayley: We're going on Friday. Hayley: Excellent. Hayley: And it's something that we'll either do at Christmas, so we'll go to the Christmas market, that kind of thing, or we will do when it's his birthday. Hayley: So we always. Hayley: Not always. Hayley: We did want to go in summer, but it was really hot. Hayley: We almost always go in the winter. Hayley: It's just such a lovely place. Hayley: And we will always try to go somewhere different and explore what are the breweries that are here. Hayley: Try and go on brewery tours, try all their different beers, find the local bottle shop, find the local beer nerd that can tell you about the beers that they've got and then basically end up with far too many beers in the boot of the car and trying to hide them for customs instead of. Rob (Host): It'S your fermenter again, with a ski jacket. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: We take them home with us and we've got this whole beer unit in the garage where we keep all of these beers and they come out for special occasions and stuff like that. Hayley: Yeah. Hayley: And I think I just have so many happy memories. Hayley: We got engaged in Belgium. Hayley: Our first holiday abroad was Belgium. Hayley: When we first met, the fact that we both liked going to Belgium and drinking belgian beers was one of the things that bonded us together. Hayley: So although I don't have one specific place, I'd say that's where a lot of my happiest beerie memories. Rob (Host): Lovely. Rob (Host): Very nice. Rob (Host): I'm afraid we're coming to end of this at the moment. Rob (Host): But where can people follow you and stay up to date with all things Haley if they want to? Hayley: So I'm on Twitter. Hayley: So that is at craft brew. Hayley: Haley. Hayley: I'm on Instagram, I think with the same handle. Hayley: I think that's at Siren CB. Hayley: Haley. Rob (Host): We can check that. Rob (Host): I can pop show notes as well for that. Hayley: I think that's about it. Hayley: I don't have any of the sort of super cool things. Hayley: I don't have like TikTok or I don't know what those things are. Rob (Host): I feel really out of my depth. Hayley: Yeah, it took me ages to get Instagram. Hayley: I just had like Twitter for ages. Hayley: Often I end up with social media because somebody else has started trying to tag me in photographs or something. Hayley: Yeah, you don't have an account. Hayley: You know, there's photos of you on this deal. Hayley: They end up with accounts. Hayley: But yeah, they can find me there or come and visit the brewery. Rob (Host): Always the best thing to do. Hayley: Come and have a few beers, get on a brewery tour, email us, come and visit. Rob (Host): Fantastic. Hayley: Yeah, we like visitors normally on the. Rob (Host): Saturday, isn't it, for siren? Hayley: Yeah, tours on the Saturday. Hayley: But yeah, the tap yards open most days and you'll often find a brewer in there after their shift. Hayley: So, yeah, tap them up for some knowledge. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): Well, thank you very much. Rob (Host): Huge thanks for joining us today on what's got to be a very big day now. Hayley: Yeah. Rob (Host): But, yeah, thank you very much. Hayley: No problem. Rob (Host): Cheers. Rob (Host): So thank you very much for listening and I hope you can join me on the next one. Rob (Host): And this is a part where I ask for your help. Rob (Host): If you haven't done so already, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a review or rating or share it with others. Rob (Host): This really helps us out and helps other people find the podcast, particularly as we're starting out. Rob (Host): And you can follow us on social media. Rob (Host): Search for wearbeer people. Rob (Host): All one word. Rob (Host): You can also email us at wearebeerpeoplepod@gmail.com. Rob (Host): Let us know what you think, share your thoughts and if you have any recommendations for beer people you'd like to hear from. Rob (Host): And until next time, don't forget you, me, us, them, we are all beer people.

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